edit SideBar

FACTNET.ORG FORUM: LaRouche - Page 1

< FACTNET.ORG FORUM: The very long thread continued | FACTNET.ORG FORUM | FACTNET.ORG FORUM: My friend wants to get out BUT >


xlcr4life (xlcr4life)
02-18-2006, 06:22 PM
Ah, housing and Larouche, a real winning combination. A track record like every other prediction of economic collapse.
In the 1970's we would warn people of a Rockefeller take over and tell people to sell their houses and give the money to the US Labor Party before everything collapses.
In the 1980's we had numerous supporters take out home equity loans @ 15 % to sign over to us for a 19 % promisorry note from us. You can guess how much of that we paid back.
We took some of that loot and then bought up real estate in the then unknown Leesburg VA to build an office complex for us. We had a company set up for supporters/investors to put money into. This idea actually came from a few of our supporters who thought that we were rationale and could leverage our cash flow into owning rather than renting in NYC.
Lyn had a penthouse apt on W58th next to the office. That was not good enough and we then rented a million dollar townhouse on Sutton Place in Manahttan for him.
Lyn wound up with a huge spread we co bought with a supporter and we had another 1000 acres to be added to our holdings.
As I said, the supporters thought that we knew something about economics. The loans were not repaid and we lost the properties. The supporters lost their money and property. Helga is so real estate savvy that we had money from the card table shrines going to build a swimming pool and horse stable on property we RENTED.
Today you can shop at a mall on land we once owned. I think "Mr. NC" himself, LW can explain what happened.
Phony baloney security scam artists ended up with a farm we bought him to "warn Lyn of assasination plots and place him on a Do Not Assasinate list of the NSA". I kid you not.
Helga did end up with a castle in Germany I was told. Steve raises the money to heat it while he freezes and sleeps with 3 other LYM in a studio.
Phil and other NC's would hold back rent on people who were "problems". Quite a few people were evicted like bums by Phil I was told.
While LYM think they are learning math, one of the ex members Phil had thrown out into the street is now a professor of math at a prestigious institution and is a Fulbright scholar. He and his wife have children and OWN their home while Phil still waits for the collapse like a cargo cult.
(Message edited by xlcr4life on February 19, 2006)


xlcr4life (xlcr4life)
02-19-2006, 03:46 AM
The West 58th st penthouse was fabulous. It had a view of Central Park, parking for the Pontiac Bonneviles and Lyn could grace the office by walking a few hundred feet.

it was pretty easy to move money around by always declaring a security problem .Between Lyn's paranoia and the security scammers who worked circles around Goldstein and Steinberg, the money would be vacuamed away from member rents, stipends and mundane things like postage to mail out our lit. We then could declare a new Lyn assasination mobe, hustle more money via the regions and keep the party going.
Basically the card table shrines sold a sub and we would barely mail it out. We would blame this on the ADL and the Post Office when the real reason was that the world's greatest economist hijacked the budget on a whim when needed.
Security was a plum job, or so people thought. It tok a while for some to figure out that you were a butler or waitress with a pistol permit.
If you go to, look up the section on "Computron" and see how we could siphon money away for Lyn via the high rise condo in Riverdale we had for him.
The Sutton Pl. townhouse was magnificent, right off E58th st. We also put Lyn up in a suite at a luxury Park Ave hotel for "security Reasons". Members got 5 bucks a day while we blew hundreds per day on cases of Rheingau.
The fun looked like it would never end until the IRS asked where the money came from to live like a millionaire who used the Concorde like a superstar jet setter.
Lyn, with a straight face in the trials would state that he had absolutlely no idea where this mystery of wealth came from. His next home became a prison cell in a Fed lock up.


xlcr4life (xlcr4life)
02-19-2006, 04:04 AM
After we lost all of the land, some members married supporters and bought houses. Other higher ranked members picked up money when their parents died and hid it to buy houses in Leesburg. That did not last for long as once the org slipped a few more notches into its cult basement those members were called on the rug so to speak. With housing valuse rising, we now hit the home owning members to borrow more on credit cards and to maximise their home equity loans.
A few like Lyn's long time security honcho Paul Goldstein left and kept their house. The rest of the home owning deadenders who found that the world economy did not collapse for the 35th year took part time jobs as the org certainly was not going to pay them.
It is a lot of fun driving through Leesburg and seeing how the org is pretty good at collapsing itself and its members faster than the IMF and WorldBank could.
Yes Sancho, some like Elliot and Margaret Greenspan were pretty nice people. Elliot has been in this circus since he attended Rutgers in the early 1970's and dropped out. While Elliot is STILL on the phones rasing money, many of his fellow LCers from New Brunswick are living a a great and productive life.
-One ex member is a PHD economist who writes legislation and has testified many times on the Hill in DC for a few President's commissions.
-Another guy Elliot knows is an award winning media producer.
-Another has a Masters and has books published on Poetry, writing and has won awards for his/her writing.
-Another person from Elliot's local became a very well respected and influential teacher/administrator who now can retire on a full pension while Elliot and Margaret hit the phones every day.


xlcr4life (xlcr4life)
02-19-2006, 04:16 AM
Margaret was a very good pianist whose piano became a liability when the rent was not paid and she and Elliot had to vacate their apts to find new places to live for the last 25 years or so. Her brother has been in prison for Lyn and I think she had another brother in Cleveland in the org.
They were real nice people and you have to look at this as a tragedy. Elliot probably had visons of leading the world to take power with the NCLC and the US Labor Party. Margaret wanted to fully explore her musical gifts. They are both gray haired, way past child bearing years, renters and still waiting for the world economy to collapse. Elliot has been through quite a bit of tragedy on his family.
Without trying to bring up a painfull episode, it was obscene to to hear about the tragedies in the Greenspans family life and read what the org was writing about and placing on card table shrines signs. For many of us, we saw how the org could go deeper into its lunacy. Elliot has a family member who shows up every time on FEC lists. That one is also something which raises questions.
I always wished that he would have left and fullfilled his potential as his fellow New Brunswick alumni. You could populate a small NJ town with the contacts Elliot had who liked him and were screwed by the org.
35 years later, your life is still based on getting up 7 days a week , hitting the phones and getting yelled at for not hitting quota. The one day he may get off is spent trying to rebuild your energy for the next barrage of calls proclaiming the latest crisis.
I do hope they take care of their health as this lifestyle ages you real fast. Margaret once had a beautiful head of red hair I saw at the Reston conference


sancho (sancho)
02-22-2006, 07:44 AM
Here Jeffrey Steinberg gives a generally positive review of ex-LaRouchite Robert Dreyfuss' latest book. This to me shows that there is some hope that once the Crazy Uncle (LaRouche) dies - and his empty-headed hangers-on are routed by the more rational members - it might be possible for a group of members to shed all the zaniness, cultism, and wooly "thinking" of LaRouche to isolate the best of Labor Committee policy and thinking and fight for it and to use its intelligence networks to serve as a gadfly on the butt of this disintegrating republic.
I hope too that this is not a mere dream, because what the LC purports to be and manifestly is not at present is necessary in an increasingly fascist culture.


xylm (xylm)
02-22-2006, 10:47 AM
I respectfully disagree and if I am wrong, I hope you or somebody can enlighten me for otherwise I don't see the connection. Since the youth have been bred on make-believe or conspiratorial history they have nothing to offer historically and since their vernacular and thought process is both a complete simulation of a mad man's and that of a system to generate money, what do they really have to offer? Additionally, their intuition (for the amount of years employed in the movement) has been stripped from them. If they have or had used any, they would have ironically made their first discovery –that Larouche is not the "one and only person who can save us from our impending doom".
In conclusion, their mal conditioning will probably supersede their discipline or at least to the point where one would be better off recruiting new members for such a movement. If habituation itself was something that could be easily brushed away I may then agree with you. But as it stands, I can literally show the Larouche members a picture of Larouche wearing a Nazi uniform and they would still show up to the card table shrine the next morning.


sancho (sancho)
02-22-2006, 04:19 PM
Very true, xylm, the people I imagine existing would be few in number and among the so-called deadenders in the movement in whom I still maintain hope. These YLMers are useless, unthinking, Visigothic battering rams. The "deadenders" I speak of had roots in real-world socialist history, not in the surreal video-game recruiting environment of these know-nothing punks like Grendon.
But, again, I'm probably dreaming.


joesixpack (joesixpack)
02-23-2006, 11:58 AM
hi - i'm a subscriber to EIR, and i find the work of larouche and his organization interesting and thought provoking...nevertheless, i cannot resist posting this gem from today's webcast: ( larouche, behind a podium,addressing an audience of supporters,said: " Don't go around hunting for nazis - you've got a real live one in front of you! " ( referring, i think, to Alito, but...)


sancho (sancho)
02-23-2006, 12:56 PM
hahaha ... good one, Joe. There is a lot of interesting stuff in EIR - even former CIA chief Casey used to read it weekly - but that was when EIR had a much larger intelligence staff. Just beware the cult/money-grubbing/crypto-Nazi angle, as you apparently already do.


joesixpack (joesixpack)
02-23-2006, 08:21 PM
thanks sancho...i've been familiar with larouche and his organization for a little over 20 years now, though i've only been subscribing to EIR for about a few months now...surprisingly, larouche's feature articles are generally the weakest is infuriating how long he takes to say so little...when i mentioned this to a member of the org recently, he said, " oh, so you prefer euclid to gauss, eh?", and walked away, shaking his head...your words of caution put me in mind of my first visit to the organization's offices...there was a meeting where the week's events were reviewed through the prism of larouche - turns out the dalai lama was a british agent - and this was followed by an informal discussion with coffee and cakes being served...a very beautiful young woman approached me, and asked if i was familiar with larouche, and before i could answer, she said that i'd probably heard terrible things about him, that he was a racist, a fascist...i interrupted her to say that i did, indeed, think he was a fascist...all conversation in the room stopped..." but it doesn't make him a bad person ", i added, looking around ...she told me that i'd probably gotten that idea from the dope lobby, whereupon i informed her that i'd been subscribing to the newspapers for years, and had gotten that idea from mr. larouche's own writings, particularly one where he said that democracy in america didn't work because the majority of people were stupid, as evidenced by the popularity of shows such as dallas...her husband quickly arrived at her side, before i had the chance to kidnap her, and take her to my apartment to deprogram her...
that's what i call it...anyway, when i left the meeting that night, and walked to my car, i was followed by a slow moving car with its headlights off...when i ran to my car and turned the my headlights on to get a look at who was following me, it sped off...i wondered about that for awhile, but not for long...


joesixpack (joesixpack)
02-23-2006, 08:27 PM
anyway, i have long agreed with larouche in his emphasis on the importance of the maintenance of infrastructure for the health of a national economy and the general welfare of the citizens...i have always felt that he was a socialist of sorts, in that his solutions involve big government...but at least he can identify the problems...often way before conventional politicians - i would point you to senator clinton's recent call for a summit on the automobile industry, coming as it did after months of larouche warnings and proposals for just such a summit, as one example...and i, too, found steinberg's favorable review of the dreyfus book to be a hopeful sign...i am somewhat disappointed by xlcr's revelations, but not really very surprised, and i do not regard mr. larouche as a total charlatan...if you respond to this post, sancho, please tell me something about your involvment with, or knowledge of, the organization...and, for those interested, here is a link to today's webcast by 84, he's still a compelling speaker... can find the quote i referred to at about 1 hour and 46 minutes in...


sancho (sancho)
02-24-2006, 10:30 AM
Hi, Joe. You can go back and read past posts to get an idea of where I've been with this organization. The salient point is that when I left, I agreed with just about everything the organization proposed for my belief, although in my heart I did not go for much of the conspiracy stuff. I had to leave because of the organization's inhuman treatment of me and others, behavior I could no longer tolerate and which no amount of rationalization would permit me to tolerate any further. For a long time thereafter I viewed myself as someone who had let humanity down - until I began to acquire degrees in subjects at which LaRouche claims to be the "world's greatest." I discovered the following: in economics, he is a charlatan; in mathematics, he is a charlatan; in discussing Leibniz, he is a charlatan. This is not to say that he does not make true statements (e.g., regarding infrastructure), but as we know a stopped clock still tells the correct time twice a day. Louis Farrakhan speaks well also, as did Hitler. But a seasoned if not mature human being must ask himself honestly whether someone who claims to have all the answers in all areas of life and to be the world's greatest at anything without having the self-control to complete even a bachelor's degree is in possession of all his marbles.


jamesstjohnsmythe (jamesstjohnsmythe)
02-27-2006, 12:47 AM
I here also agree with LaRouche on infrastructure and most of his socialist ideas. But other than that, he's a insecure quack job with too much time on his hands.
Sancho & xlym:
I have to disagree. There were some youth who are down to earth and still were into the same music (a big no-no in the cult) before they joined. Just because most LYM fall for the lie "LHL knows best!" doesn't mean theres a few who are not too sure.
Most likely their reason for leaving the cult and probably others. The unsure lyms or the few would look into it more if the leaders and rest of the members weren't acting like Gestapos. There are always going to be a few who will question.
Take for example the GOP, most of them accepts Bush's rhetoric like lemmings while there will be a few who will question. The GOP labels the few "Terrorist" while LHL and his grade school kids the LYM label the few "Sophists". Tho in a LaRouche world, Sophists are "terrorists" instead of al-Qaeda, ALF, and ELF.
If memory serves, you mention LHL's cult went with the conservists and supported Reagan in the 80's.
Hows that possible when LHL was running as a Democrat since 1980 and make claims they're againest Reaganomics?
James St. John Smythe


borisbad (borisbad)
03-01-2006, 12:15 PM
LaRouche's pitch was supposedly to "Reagan democrats" who were purportedly liberal on economics and conservative socially- ala the so-called war on drugs, the war on AIDs which involved mostly attacks on people like Rock Hudson and Liberace. The attacks on Reaganomics was against supply siders like David Stockman as well as monetarists like Milton Friedman because LHL believed that somehow Reagan would support a "dirigist" approach by supporting the SDI and this would "free" him from the supply siders. But I remember how conveniently the change came from supporting the so-called Labor Party to going after Reagan conservatives as well as readers of Spotlight, the Hunt Brothers and other well-heeled right wingers and conspiracy fanatics.


xlcr4life (xlcr4life)
03-02-2006, 05:05 PM
Mr. Smythe,
My work load had kept me from addressing your questions. Give me a few days and I will show you how the org works in getting members to flip on a dime (or dollar) when needed.
If you review this section you will see some of your questions answered.
The first thing to understand is to not think of this org as a legitimate group of people who have things to do. It will seem that way to the card table shriners and the fundraisers, but the main purpose of the org is to feed Lyn's ego and paranoia. It took me a long time to figure out that having a room of sycophants and an offshore bank account means more than a room of supporters who get things done.
If you were to review the org's many faces, you will find that we have less supporters, less sunscribers and less members than when we started. What Lyn has achieved is his ultimate dream which is a self worshiping group of youngsters. Each phase of our chameleonesque faces brought some new blood to replace the old, tired out spent blood.
It is the same today and the stories are the same as when I came in, and when I left.
What usually happens is that the members will be doing some project which will have a name, but, will always revolve around Lyn. When the time come, Lyn will issue a long document which the NC's will then ahh and ohh over like school girls. A new policy is announced based on some new break through of Lyn and then you are off in a new direction.
Most members will go on. The few who question are then denounced as the reason why Lyn is not president. Those who stick around are too busy to read what we actually are producing. The ones who really read stuff like our Nazi rocket scientist fan club leave.


xlcr4life (xlcr4life)
03-02-2006, 05:23 PM
There is no shortage on an org built on mental manipulation to denounce your shortcomings.
For thirty years it has been like this. If you read the briefings you will see how the LYM is now being called on the carpet to raise the bucks, rather than just spend the bucks.
The essence of this is that Lyn will always first proclaim that only he understands some topic like Marxism. Then, he shows how he made a breakthrough at 3 AM and solved the fundamental problem. Then, he will announce that the org is moving forward and surpassing that.
Now the members think that they are the only people who understand Marxism in the early 1970's. In the Mid 1970's we pretty much burnt through Marxism and needed cleaner faces at the airport card table shrines.
Lyn now attacks marxism and proclaims that the American System is number 1. The NEC starts writing papers and we are now burning our Marx books and buying American history books.
Lyn ran in 1976 as the US Labor Party candidate for president. We ran against Jimmy Carter basically in that election. We figured out that third parties may not work and find out that we can raise a boat load of money selling Khomeni gun targets and anti Kennedy and anti Jane Fonda bumper stickers.
Conservatives, who hated us for being Marxists now like us for attacking Carter as a Trilat/CFR agent. We open up new front groups with nuclear power via FEF (Fusion Energy Foundation) and anti drug work via the National Anti Drug Coalition.
Marx who? is our battle cry as we now start raising money and Lyn has an org under his control as the old timers from the early 1970 colleges are now out and those who are left are pretty much beaten down by Lyn via his Beyond Psych sessions with them.
An 18 year old facing serious work in college will both look for an easy way to understand the world, and, a way to get away from his or her immediate problems. Grad students laugh at Lyn and the writings. A fresh 18 year old who wants to change the world isn't a critical thinker yet. Lyn has always stated that he needs 18 to 25 year olds who have not yet decided on life to be the guts of his org.
So far, I can count at least 5 sets of youths who thought that they were going to save humanaity, stop nuclear war and see the complete economic collapse.
More later.


03-24-2006, 07:14 AM
Wow! Just came across this yesterday. What a sad bunch of bitterness. I admit I haven't read the whole string--maybe 10% at most, so maybe everything I'm going to say has already been said. Stop being "ex-members!" I was an "ex-member" for 10 years until I started being just me. It's been over 20 years now since I quit the org, and I only just realized that I spent the first 10 years being an "ex-member." When you're an ex-member, you're still letting the org live rent-free in your brain. Evict the buggers! It's like once you were in a high school with really bad cliques. It screwed you up for a long time. Then finally you got over it, without even realizing it, because you just started to live. My high school analogy breaks down: who the hell would want to go to a reunion?
And forget the bitterness. It'll eat you up. I was a member once because I liked it, and then one day I didn't like it anymore so I quit. Take responsibility for your actions (I know--I sound like a republican). No one can be manipulated unless they want to be manipulated.
Good luck to everyone--members and ex-members alike. But special good luck to ex-ex-members.


03-24-2006, 04:56 PM
I can assure you that many of us left everything behind when we too left the org. For the most part, everyone reclaimed their lives and proceeded on to a better life. It really was not until the recent era of web based communication that people have shared what they saw or went through.
Some people have no inclination to remind themselves of this part of their lives. That is fully understandable as people have kids and other things far more important.
The recent spike in members who have contributed here and in other places is based on what happened to a young college kid named Jeremiah Duggan a few years ago in Germany. If you were around 20 years ago, then you have an understanding on how the org works. If you were around before that, then you can think back to the Chris White Brainwashing, mop-up , the money chicanery and other subjects.
Up until Jeremiah Duggan's death, you hardly saw and info since many years have passed since Lyn shared his jail cell with Will Wertz.
The org has decided to rewrite history to its yutes who were born when we were doing credit card shenanigans and issuing Larouche promisorry notes before the world economy collapses.
The correction of history and info is more for the benefit of incoming youth who deserve to know what they are getting involved with.
Finally, many of saw first hand the damage done to people and how callous the org really is in real world life. Quite a few have reacted in shock when they examined the anti semitic drippings of the org over time.
The wealth of knowledge here has been put to very good use by people around the globe who use the web to find out about Larouche.
Think of this as a public service.


03-25-2006, 08:22 PM
Hi, realme. Your point is well taken - as far as it goes. I have found venting here very therapeutic because for a long time I silently carried around the guilt and shame first of no longer being a soldier for humanity as it were and then, as I matured, of having been in such a crazy cult and followed such a madman as Lyndon LaRouche. (The very name suggests the oddity within.) The anonymity here affords me the opportunity to seize power back from my former would-be brainwashers through truth, humor, and sarcasm. None of this however makes me a professional "ex-member": outside of this bulletin board I give as much attention to the ravings and carryings on of LaLush and his minions as I do to the weekly police blotter in a village circular. The most important part of this process you ignore entirely: we who post here truthfully about what occurs daily in the LaRouche organization and related front groups serve as a warning to young people who may be momentarily lured in by all the smoke and mirrors which are designed to manipulate politicised, idealistic youth with some social or emotional problems into an idol-worshipping, shady money-making racket. LaRouche will die very soon anyway - but why allow even one soul to squander a few of the most precious years of his or her life helping to prop up this wicked cult leader.
Have a good day. (


03-25-2006, 08:49 PM
And lest one think LHL, Jr. sane, check out this recent nugget:
Q: In one of your previous interviews, you mentioned that London is behind the idea of a possible strike on Iran. What is the basis of your argument?
LaRouche: Well, first of all, the policy is a British policy, which certain people in the United States are connected to. For example, take the case of Dick Cheney, the Vice President. The Vice President is very close to Liz Symons, to whom he was introduced by his own wife, Lynne Cheney. And during the period, for example, between the time he was head of the Defense Department, under George Bush the First, and the time that he became the Vice President—and the acting president, practically—he negotiated certain contracts.
So, the Liberal Imperialist crowd in London, which is the Blair-Jack Straw crowd, is actually the architect of this. But the architecture runs largely through international financial channels, such as George Shultz, who is a former Secretary of State, and who is the architect of the present Bush Administration: That is, the person who pulled it together to be elected.
So, this is the key point from which this comes. It's an Anglo-American operation, but the policy itself, which is the British policy of the Arab Bureau, the so-called "anti-Islam policy," is what the motivation is.

  • This is your brain. This is your brain on LaRouche.

03-27-2006, 04:40 PM
That is just too much for me Sancho, I nearly spewed my drink over my keyboard. I am sorry, but I have to laugh at the idiocy! It's absolutely priceless! What world does that man live on?!


03-28-2006, 03:55 AM
Thanks, Kheris, but it's sad to think how much time it took to get to the point where one could see clearly that this guy was not only not a genius, but just a garden-variety crackpot of a type with which mental hospitals are replete. So I hope what we post here will scare kids (and others) away from squandering one second of their precious lives on this drivel.


04-07-2006, 01:59 PM
People sacrifice for small businesses and for various things which are important to them. What makes the org more perverse is how the things which you wish for which are good, will be hijacked by the cult's paranoia of the month offering.
There was a show on the Science Channel on Mars which featured former member Bob Zubrin, now a PHD and advocate of space travel. The yutes may think they support this, but instead, have inherited Lyn and Helga's fascination with resurecting Nazi scientists and war criminals from the dead. So what a member thinks he or she is supporting is usually not what their efforts are actually supporting.
Zubrin does real research for real scientists for real legislation and action. The yutes will be carting around a 20 year old VHS tape of Mars and telling you that "Nothing will happen without Larouche leading the trip to Mars".
Today's crop of recruits may think that they are supporting an end to Iraq conflict. What they usually will not find out until it is too late is how much of lyn's lunacy about the Jews and 9/11 is spread in the Mid East by fellow anti semitic thinkers. Lyn's founding European member Webster Tarpley spreads a version of this lunacy through people have had a bad taste of Lyn from years ago.
The yutes are not working for a Dem Pac, but doing PR for scary groups in the Mid East. We did the same thing decades ago for the South Africans and other Tin Pot dictators who we thought would support us. A lot of the money we recieved and meetings we did were not known by members at the time.
In Leesburg, all of the dead enders who still hung around have been hung out to dry so to speak by Lyn. They cost too much and this travelling circus of LYM is cheaper. The joke of this is that those who hung around with Lyn waiting for the economic collapse, have now collapsed economically.
Lym does not show up here because it works against them when college kids start doing searches on Larouche and find their axiomatic challenged lives here.
The LYM yahoo group is now just date spam for losers postings.


04-21-2006, 03:37 PM
This is from the Boston Globe. later, we will review some thing about this which is very troubling. Here is the URL so you can see the picture. It is here in two parts. ups/
Colleges consider stressing danger of pressure groups
By Cristina Silva, Globe Staff | April 14, 2006
Dressed in sneakers and jeans, they hang out along the edges of campuses, handing out fliers and calling out to passing college students.
Each group, students say, has a different, seemingly harmless opening line: Are you saved? Are you antiwar? Are you stressed out?"
But some college officials say they view most of these groups as high-pressure organizations akin to cults. The groups have a history of recruiting vulnerable students and then alienating them from their parents and classmates. They say that the groups, many of which were banned from schools more than a decade ago, resurfaced on campuses this year.
After years of doing little to educate students on the groups, some colleges are reconsidering whether they should do more to teach students about the dangers of cults.
We want to keep our eyes and ears open to see if anyone is getting caught up in it," said Northeastern University's residence director, Seth Avakian. He submitted an editorial to the student newspaper in March on how to identify cults after several high-pressure groups appeared on campus last fall.
The Boston Church of Christ, which was founded in Lexington in 1979, and the LaRouche Youth Movement, a political group founded by former presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche, are the two groups appearing most often on local campuses, officials said.
The groups are considered high-pressure organizations because they have been accused of using strong-arm tactics to recruit and keep members. The church has raised concerns, its critics say, by telling students their parents are the devil and by assigning mentors, who tell students which classes to take so they don't miss the frequent church gatherings. The LaRouche group, its critics say, encourages members to drop out of school and spend their time recruiting new members. Cult awareness specialists says the group also threatens members who try to leave the group. Leaders of both organizations have said they are not cults.
The church describes itself on its website as a family of nearly three thousand people in the Greater Boston area who are committed to following Jesus." Several calls placed to the church by the Globe were not returned.
Barbara Boyd -- treasurer of the Lyndon LaRouche Political Action Committee and a spokeswoman for the LaRouche Youth Movement, founded in 2000 -- called accusations against the group gossip.
Members, who are sometimes called LaRouchies, are a part of a
youth movement in the Democratic Party," fighting for ideas and real policies," Boyd wrote in an e-mail.
Students say that recruiters, who are often college-age, can seem innocuous, but are persistent.
Joshua Peters, a senior at Suffolk University, said he has been approached by a group he described as a yoga healing center that asked him to donate as much as $4,000 for the right to live on the group's commune in California and practice yoga. He could not remember the group's name.
They will tell people, 'You need to be healed and fixed,' " he said.


04-21-2006, 03:39 PM
Part two of the Boston Globe article. Comments later about the card table shrine's latest victim.

  • Chris Lee, 33, of Cambridge, executive director of REVEAL, a nonprofit group for former Boston Church of Christ members that tries to help people quit the organization, said a friend invited him to join the church when he was a sophomore at MIT in 1991. He was asked to leave the group when he was a senior after he questioned the group's leadership, he said.
    At first, it doesn't seem like you are getting involved with anything unusual," said Lee. They don't look expressionless or mindless."
    Administrators say they want to provide students with enough information to make an educated decision for themselves.
    At Worcester State College, school officials decided to set up a cult information web page after Boston Church of Christ members showed up on campus in September 2004, hosting Bible studies at the student center and talking to students about salvation.
    The group showed up again this fall and was repeatedly asked to leave campus before it stopped holding meetings, said Sibyl Brownlee, dean of student development. By then the church had recruited at least seven students, she said.
    At Boston University, several groups showed up in the fall, but those from the LaRouche Movement are the most active, said Ray Bouchard, director of the Office of the University Chaplain. They show up every week, he said.
    They say, 'Hey, we all hate Dick Cheney, don't we?' " he said. It's how they engage the students."
    University officials have discussed updating their cult information guides since the groups reappeared, but so far the school is distributing literature published more than five years ago, Bouchard said.
    Cult activity garnered statewide attention after dozens of universities began banning the Boston Church of Christ in the 1990s and forbade proselytizing on campus. The groups seemed to have a resurgence around 2001 and then faded for different reasons, said Steven A. Hassan, director of the Freedom of Mind Center in Cambridge, which offers counseling to former cult members. Hassan is a former member of the Unification Church, also known as the Moon cult, which had recruiters on BU's campus last fall.
    The Boston Church of Christ lost some steam after its founder, Thomas McKean, stepped down in 2002, Hassan said. The church has since regrouped and become active again, he said.
    Other groups, such as the LaRouche movement, have grown along with the unpopularity of President Bush's policies, because the organizations go after liberal college students, Hassan said.
    But while these groups have grown more widespread in the past years, colleges have not increased their cult-awareness education, Hassan said.
    The schools want to ignore it," he said. But they need to tell the students: 'Hey, here is a whole list of questions you should ask. You should ask who the name of their leader is, what their mission is.' "
    Still, some university officials say they're not too worried about the groups.
    Rabbi Al S. Axelrad, chairman of the Center for Spiritual Life at Emerson College, said students are too sophisticated to join the LaRouche Movement, which recently set up an information table near dorms on Boylston Street.
    It's always a lurking kind of danger, I admit that," he said. But mostly our students have enough on the ball to know to reject it."

04-22-2006, 06:17 AM
''But mostly our students have enough on the ball to know to reject it."
That's very true, but it is not those that the LaRouche cult seeks to attract - rather those who don't have much on the ball emotionally or socially. Those are the targets, the usually intellectually gifted misfits, which the LaRouche cult machine chews up and spits out. These misfits are the people who should be identified (not difficult to do) in their freshman year by peer advisors and others and given special counseling on the dangers of cults like that of LaRouche. I know. I was one such misfit with very little on the ball in terms of emotional or social maturity and had no idea what I was getting myself into - until it was too late.


04-23-2006, 09:37 AM
I first posted here about a month ago and since then I've been trying to read this whole long train of postings. I'm only up to June 2005—got family to pay attention to and a career to work at—novel concepts for LCers. My wife says it's unhealthy to spend too much time here—better to let the old crap go. Maybe she's right.
Some of the ex-members here still sound like members—all too ready to pontificate about one thing or another. One poster a few years ago even made a crack about ex-members who turned into greenies. Hey, we're not in the org anymore—we're all free to form our own beliefs and opinions, and we can even respect other people's opinions. Screw the morning briefing.
I was saddened to read about Jenny, the former music teacher and daughter of two LCers now chained to a life of card tablery herself. I knew her parents, and they never seemed like hard-core members; they always seemed to have money and some kind of job going on the side. But the comment about LC kids owing their existence to LHL being in prison—sorry—doesn't hold water. Jenny and her age cohorts were born c. 1980, and the old jailbird wasn't caged until the late 80s (1989 maybe?).
In fact, lots of members had kids in the 80s. Well, not everyone—far from it. And some of the folks who had kids were marginal members. But VR and TR had two kids, and they have to be two of the tightest of the tight-<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> members I ever met. Once, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, my wife asked VR her opinion of some item in the news, and VR began, "Well, Lyn says …" Ah yes! Must be nice not to have take the time or the trouble to form your own opinions.
(You know the org has always supported a woman's right to choose--that woman's name is Nancy Spannaus.)
But the saddest thing of all, at least for me, is to read about Mike Billington's shenanigans. Gail waited for the <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> how many years?--nine or ten?--while the scam artist was in prison. She waited while her childbearing years ran out. She once told me her fantasies about having a daughter. And now Mike goes and diddles the young recruits, shows them his higher hypothesis and nests his manifold. And Gail's supposed to be too fat? She was always skinny as a rail when I knew her.
One of the younger people here posted something about Ted in LA. Would that be Ted with the Greek last name? I bet it is. He was the bane of my existence decades ago, and now it seems he has a whole new crop to torment. And yet I have a soft spot in my heart for him. I'm totally hardhearted towards the National Office apparatchiks, but the regional folk—they made plenty members suffer but they suffered too. Ted's wife DA used to talk on and on about how she and all the other women in the org would have babies nine months after the revolution. Still waiting I guess; those babies' little unborn souls up in heaven with Lyn's unborn revolution.
Forgive me while I ramble on and on. Maybe someone will figure out who I am. I've racked my brains trying to guess who some of the anonymi are—I have a few guesses but I'm none too sure (if I were an LCer that wouldn't be a problem—Lcers are never unsure about anything).
More to come ...


04-23-2006, 10:12 AM
Part 2
After I quit (more than 20 years ago) I hung around for a few years as a "supporter." I did a little translating from German for the org, mostly scientific stuff but once I tried my hand at poetry, Schiller of course, even though I found him a pompous poet, perfectly suited to Wertz's "beauteous" translations. Anyway, Schiller was a fierce partisan for the Protestant side, rather inconvenient for the org in its Catholic phase. I came across a line castigating the "Vatikan" and I foolishly translated that as against the Vatican. What would you expect from a blocked ex-member? By the time it saw print, it had been changed to "Jesuits."
A lot of folks here refer to the anti-semitic jokes of years back. The ashtray in the VW joke was particularly offensive. Then, just a few months ago, I heard a variation of that joke on NPR! An Iranian newspaper had started an anti-semitic joke contest as retaliation for the Muhammed cartoons, and an Israeli guy said, no way, Jews are the best at anti-Semitic jokes, so he started his own contest. And the Israeli guy read the damn ashtray joke on the air! I don't know what to say about that one.
To the parents of newly recruited members: Your kid is going to do what she or he is going to do, and if you nag them, you'll make it worse. My wife and I probably stayed in a couple of years longer than we would have because her father was such a damn anti-LaRouche nag, and we hated to give him the satisfaction. We never told her parents when we quit; I guess they just figured it out after a few years.
So, parents, tell your kid you disagree with them, but you recognize their right to live as they wish. Tell them you love them and you'll always be there for them. Give them gifts of food or clothing when appropriate but never money, and take them out to a nice restaurant now and then if you can afford it and if they'll let you. And prepare yourself to be verbally abused, but take it cheerfully. And take a deep breath and wait.
A few questions for previous posters:
Someone mentioned a spate of Leesburg funerals. Who died in the last few years? I saw Primack and Sonnenblick in the local papers, and I heard about Parsons and Burdman here. Who else?
And do the Leesburgers really hit the bottle as much as you say? Not that I doubt it, but how can they afford it?
My sick fantasy is running some sort of shelter for old members with nowhere else to go. My wife and I ran into Chris and Carol some years ago. Selling real estate. That's like a punch in the stomach. I never cared much for either of them, but to see two elderly, intelligent, educated people doing that to keep body and soul together--ahh.
Well that's enough for now.


04-24-2006, 08:32 AM
It's good to regurgitate the old crap for the young people being sucked in now for whom it is new crap. When they see that the new crap is just an iteration of the old crap, it helps them see that they are in a destructive cult.
Also, what you say about parents and family is good advice: never nag their children as they feel they are doing the right thing for humanity, but all the while strive to maintain contact because that is what all cults cannot bear: the victims' continued links to family, friends, and the outside world - to reality.
It is not a sick fantasy at all: had I money, I would definitely set up such a facility for the likes of Charles Hughes or Bob Wesser. Although well meaning, they are no less mentally ill after years in this cult than many others in State care.


04-26-2006, 12:02 PM
Interesting to mention Charles Hughes who was always like an unrepentant Stalinist, and Bob Wesser, who I think came in from high school. I had liked them although Charles always had a "workerist" mentality and would do anything Phil or Dennis told him to do. Not much critical thinking that I recall. As for funerals, I believe that Graham Lowry also died fairly recently.
For people to wean themselves, it's hard to believe that people who've been in for 20 to 30 years and are now in advanced middle age would have an easy time reintegrating into society. It took me a few years to deprogram myself from some aspects of LaRouche speak and LaRouche thinking. And often I still have nightmares of being "asked to do a deployment" and getting roped back in, and I left almost twenty years ago. But fortunately, even when I was in the org. I kept my lifelines open, like working part time, etc.
As to some of the ideas that still might seem attractive, or the so-called intelligence in the EIR, it's easy to find any intelligence on any subject these days on the world-wide web, including hundreds of other variations of conspiracy theories, ie. the WTC collapse was an inside job, there was no plane crashing into the Pentagon, etc. One doesn't need Steinberg or Tarpley to read about it. But supposedly, it was LHL's "unique ability" to integrate all the disparate aspects of human knowledge into one all-encompassing higher hypothesis.
These days it's their line to attack Cheney and Rohatyn. Earlier it was Jimmy Carter, or Nelson and David Rockefeller, or Ted Kennedy. And of course for a long time it was Henry Kissinger. So it's hard to put much stock in the acumen of Steinberg's intelligence gathering these days or to hope that there might be some sanity once LaRouche goes. If anything they might make a more frantic and desparate drive to show how different they are from any other organization. And besides, I'm sure Helga would have ideas of keeping things going, especially in Europe.


04-30-2006, 11:07 AM
Realme, you are definately right about parents not giving their kids money while in the Larouche cult. I can think of so many members who were told to call up their parents with some story to get cash. The cash quickly went to the org as the NC's were waiting like vultures for the mail to arrive.
Many of these stories involved medical needs like dental or medical problems which a few hundred would cure. The tragedy is that many members neglected to see doctors and take care of their health which caught up to many later on in life. If you were around during the 1980 New Hampshire campaign you can think about the many members who were sick with pneumonia and were still sent out in the cold of the Mid West. People were so starved that a cheap steak dinner in a Chicago diner was seen as a reward for taking a few years of your life.
The org was in a big wine kick, German of course. Cheap German wines for the members while I did the hootch runs for cases of $50 bottles of Rheingau for Lyn and Helga. A few drops for the minstrel show members.
Depression and drinking are interlinked in studies of the problem and Leesburg is no different. If you just saw 30 years of your life vanish while slaving for Lyn and then read about how you did not work hard enough to put his carcas in the White House as Master of the Universe, you would hit the bottle too. The present day yutes are being charged up to replace the old and now abandoned elderly LCers.
Here is a rough death roll call.
Allen Salsibury died in the early 90's due to prostate cancer.
Graham Lowry died a few years ago due to liver failure. Figure it out.
Mike Gelber died in the early 90's driving a Larouche mobile on frozen roads in upstate NY. I think he fell asleep at the wheel.
One of Nancy Spannous's son died in an auto accident in Leesburg a few years ago.
A long time supporter worker/LCer named Charles Grande died of a beating death in his Rochester home in the 1990's.
Maryanne Wertz died of complications from numerous health issues a few years ago. Hubby Will found a Lalc wife I heard.
Steven Pepper died several years ago in a train crash in Italy. His former wife Marcia Merry was a few husbands past him.
If you did translations, then you must remember Denise Henderson. She did Russian translations and was married to Fred. Denise was about 6 feet while Fred barely hit 5 feet in winter boots. She died after getting hit by a hit and run in DC while working at a legal job to support herself. Fred was not married to her at the time. He hooked up with a teacher from a conference.

Primack had a heart attack. He had to fend for himself after getting out of prison.
Dana Arnest, formally Dana Sloan, passed away in April of 2004 to cancer I think. Real tragedy as she left 3 kids behind.
Parsons supposedly committed suicide. I think he was already broken up with Cynthia and was dating a local Leesburg girl. The story was that he was just drifting in simple jobs trying to fend for himself after devoting 3 decades to Larouche.
There are more, but I can't think of them right now. There are also members who left years ago who passed away.
Lyn lived a life of luxury, great health care and a jet setters life at their dime though. It will be tragic to see him outlive everyone who was with him from day one who paid his fare in life.
The yutes get to pick up the tab for the final stretch. The yutes should also think about how they are not told about the many members who gave everything and were discarded like trash at the curb later in life.
Leave school, devote your life and youth to bizarro world , and then die broke, childless alone, burnt out or some combination of this.


04-30-2006, 02:13 PM
One of the founding members in the early days was Leif and Susan Johnson. Real nice people who asked too many questions and were sent far away from the center.
Susan unfortunately, passed away in the early 1990s I believe. Leif did end up leaving the org. They were among the kinder people you run in the org who you feel were cheated out of a lot that life has to offer.
Gelber was rewarded for his decades of service with a plug in the Fidelio magazine for a fund in his name. The issue may have come out a while after he died that snowy night.
Vol III, No. 4 Winter 1994 (1995) (cover date says Winter 1995)

Gelber , the yutes should know did everything to protect Lyn so he could save humanity. When investigations began in Boston by a Grand Jury, we sent many members from North East locals to Europe. We whom were left had to act as if nothing happened and deny that we knew anything about the sudden vanishment of a dozen or so people.
This showed up in Michelle Steinberg's infamous notebooks during the investigations.
I would guess that Gelber had about 20 years of his life in the org when he too left college. In a split second, poof, it all vanished and all that is left is a paragraph asking for money in Fidelio. You will not find many people who remember that night. The basic story is that he was driving for a long time to meet contacts in a bad snow storm. Those of you who were in the org know about how we often sent members out in Larouche mobiles which were one bald tire away from the junkyard. People who knew about this were stunned as he may have fallen asleep at the wheel.
The old motto was "Die for Rockefeller or take power with Larouche". I guess this may have reversed itself as members die for Larouche and support Sen. Rockefeller of W.Va.
Ah, a farce and a tragedy for the newbies. Ask why certain people left Europe after the Jeremiah Duggan death.
Jeremiah was supposed to be a new recruit and the whole org loved him as he drove with members from France to Germany for a conf. Yep, he was a potential recruit and money source. After his death, notice how the org created an elaborate conspiracy about his family and how the oligarchs used him to prevent Larouche from getting into the White House.
This poor kid has to have his life made into a conspiracy against Lyn by the British and Dick Cheney.
If you are in the org and can read that crap with a straight face, then you really deserve to be in the Bizarro world of Lyn.}
(Message edited by xlcr4life on April 30, 2006)


05-01-2006, 02:08 PM
I wish to thank the Factnet people for splitting up the Larouche posts into easy to read sections. Only problem is that one can not edit a post after a certain time period.
Dana Arnest was formerly Dana Sloan many years ago. Dana Sloan was formally our Larouche for President press spokesperson. Now this was funny as the yutes now and most members for the past 25 years were told that the media conspired to silence Lyn from saving the world.
Well, that is what you were told. We had numerous press requests for interviews. We could not do them because they would start to ask Lyn questions from his many crazy writings and the interviews would end with Lyn babbling like a kidnapped UFO traveler on acid.
The best public example of this was a melt down on the old Morton Downey show. The staff would be kept busy turning down requests since we always came off looking nuts. The best part of this was telling Lyn that behind every media visit was Kissinger, the British or whatever was his favorite Rheingau enhanced paranoia.
That Boston Globe article I posted a few weeks ago featured a kid named Pavel in the picture. Pavel should know that there were several versons of him working card table shrines for decades before he came along. They all had the same internal belief in wishing to change the world for the better. Each one dropped out of school or work and spent several years thinking that there card table efforts actually meant something.
In the end, each person eventually left. Each person was probably promised a role in the org of doing exciting things or research or something that would appeal to them.
These people know a kid like Pavel better than Pavel knows himself. He will hear what he needs to hear and will filter out the crazy resonance of what the real Larouche cult is about.
Everyone did this until you could no longer ignore the obvious.
I would hope Pavel could read these posts to see what the future is.


05-01-2006, 11:30 PM
abt mike billington, he told gail to attend exercise lose the fat.
he also lives off her wealthy father - a former oil company exec.
without money from her father, he won't even hv a roof over his head.
gail also does part time work, at a fren's an antique furniture store in another town to get money to keep mike's higher hypothesis afloat.
mike billington on the other hand, likes to work with the young recruits, especially the pretty ones.
he has a crush on erin - the one the org sent to berlin.


05-04-2006, 11:00 AM
I can easily imagine the following horror now taking place in locals across the country: people who have given their very last for decades to LaRouche and are now greying and slower than they used to be, now overtaken by the Young Turk LYMers with all of their mindless energy who snidely compete with the old faithful at the card table shrine and everywhere to empirically verify the impotence of the organizational so-called boomers. The old folks have nowhere to go with no savings, no insurance, no pension, no property, no outside friends, few family, and no healthcare plan beyond the hospital emergency room. But before the Young Turks pat themselves on the back for their superior brilliance and organizing skill, they should realize that they are being played by LaRouche who does not want to have to fork over one cent for the care of the aging membership (beyond the care of himself) and is therefore setting up an out-with-the-old-in-with-new situation. That's it. Sheer economics, kids. That is the true LaRouche economic model. And the old fart is playing you for suckers, you stupid little pr---s. Have fun gloating over the good old soldiers, because you're next, schmucks.


05-05-2006, 12:45 PM
In a nutshell, Larouche consistently takes credit for battling, shaking up, and even causing significant blows to the financial oligarchs who have "taken over this world through wars and oppression." It's hard for me to believe that these extremely powerful oligarchs who "have directed the deaths and mental depletions of millions", have not taken one action to place threats or cause any serious fear among the Larouchies. Not 1 Larouchie has died as a result of being "the biggest challenge" against the most powerful and vicious people in the world, the oligarchs. And mind you, these Larouchies are based in broken down buildings and drive broken down cars with bald tires, which means that they have a better chance finding death from the consequences of their own surroundings and poverty –and if you read up, that's indeed how all of their deaths have occurred!


05-06-2006, 11:37 AM
Lyn has always stated that he needs to recruit from the 18 to 25 year old demographic since they often have not made up their minds up about the world. We would here this at every conference and it did not hit me until I left to truly understand how this works.
In a few parts here, we can examine this in more detail.
Yes XYLM, more people have died in Larouche's cars than in nuclear power plants.
I think a good example of this can be illustrated by the young man in the photo of the Boston Globe article here. ups/
His name is Pavel Penev and looks to be in his early 20's. He may have judgement problems with his new friends, but he is not a dummy. I think this is his web site from college . You have to have some brains to get to this level at Berkley. However, brains, do not trump experience and judgement as we often find out later in life.
Since Pavel is in Boston, I would ask him to take a close look at the much older Bill Ferguson. The story on Ferguson was that he was attending Princeton on a math scholarship. We picked him up and battled his family as he was the first to go to college and for an African American family,a Princeton scholarship was a dream.
Bill had doubts about his abilities and felt pressure in this situation when we met him. We knew how to deal with that and filled Bill's head with how he would be able to master incredible math and science skills in the org. We even filled up his head with dreams of working and writing with our science group, The Fusion Energy Foundation. Bill got to rub shoulders with some of our FEF people and then we put him to work with the FEF. Bill spent the next 20 or so years manning a card table shrine selling Fusion and 21st Century magazines at post offices and airport lobbies.
As the years past by, Bill was fully dependent on the org for every aspect of his life. Money, clothes, housing, mating, transportation etc. Every decison Bill made was to benefit Larouche. and boy did Lyn live a great Rheingau filled jet setting life.
Bill at least had a web site. where we find some gems.
more to come


05-06-2006, 11:40 AM
In the Boston Metro, a free newspaper with a wide circulation, Ferguson's answers to five questions were published on September 4:
1) What would you be doing if you were not in politics?
Answer: Like most people, I would be struggling to survive, trying to block out the reality that the economy is collapsing, and hysterically denying the fact that I can do something about it.
2) Who would you set as a role model and why?
Answer: Lyndon LaRouche. He is the Socrates of our age, and ingenious enough to cause his enemies to drink the hemlock.
3) What is your greatest fear?
Answer: That I would have the opportunity to do something great for humanity and not be ready.
4) Tell us something you have done that demonstrates your character.
Answer: I dropped out of Princeton to work with LaRouche because I was more committed to seeking truth and fighting evil than getting a B. S. Degree.
5) Why should you be elected?
For over 35 years, economist and statesman Lyndon LaRouche, uniquely, has never erred in any of his long-range forecasts. We are undergoing worldwide financial and monetary disintegration that LaRouche accurately forecast in 1994. Can our citizens find the wisdom and will, despite the political 'leadership,' to act with LaRouche, to beat this Depression? If so, they should elect me because I will implement LaRouche's solutions.
At the same time that we had Bill under control, a member named Bob Zubrin who joined in the early 70's was on his way out. If Pavel would like to see the difference between the real world and the Bizarro world of Larouche, then check out the Mars Society here and see who actually has made more progress in 25 years, Ferguson or Zubrin?
You can not read a single article or see a TV show on Mars with out Zubrin's input and research. Lyn has a great economics plan, you recruit Bill Fergusons to make him lose everything to replace the departing Zubrins. Pavel is now the new guy who will be replacing Bill Ferguson when his life is exhausted.
more to come


05-06-2006, 11:43 AM
Lyn has been in this game for decades. He almost ran out of Bill Fergusons a few years ago until he started the game up again for the yutes who were born when we first coralled Bill Ferguson from Princeton. If Pavel or Bill think we are joing here, just pick up the May 2nd briefing by Lyn about the org's finances.
Here are some exerpts for people to read.
" Fortunately, a few of us were not inclined to die willingly.
In the concluding years of the Y2000 U.S. Presidential campaign,
the beginning of a resuscitation of the organization was underway
under my leadership initiatives. These initiatives included the
founding of an adult youth movement, an initiative which was met
with strong, vigorous opposition, and attempted political
sabotage, even from within leading parts of the association,
through the time of what proved to be the highly effective July
2004 deployment into the Boston Democratic convention.
So, with the emergence of that adult youth movement, we
began traveling the unavoidably hard road of rebuilding a
shattered, and worn-down association."
What Lyn is not telling Pavel is that when Pavel was attending PreK in Bulgaria, we were busy conducting financial scams which cost people millions and sent Lyn and others to prison for years. The members who were bled dry so Lyn could have a mansion and Helga a castle were then purged by Lyn. Those who were not purged usually met with Lyn, saw how crazy he really is and then left. So even though Pavel can read Campaigners by NEC members and others, he will never meet them since they all dropped out and have moved on with their lives.
Lets move down the page.
- - The Matter of The LYM - -
The LYM, as I have defined its required organization and
methods, is the only available way in which our organization can
actually earn significant amounts of income to support our
activities today. Therefore, it would be the lack of that policy
which would be the greatest of the systemic varieties of threat
to our capabilities today.
People in the "68er" age-interval, as typified by those born
between, approximately, 1945 and 1957, are reaching out toward
the age of retirement from any vigorous employment. Those born
shortly before 1945, are on the way to retirement age. Thus, to
state the cruel fact of the matter: who would make a long-term
investment in their future economic contribution? Meanwhile,
those who entered the LYM ranks about five years ago, or somewhat
later, have more than fifty adult years of active economic life
ahead of them; they represent a viable long-term investment."
moe to come


05-06-2006, 11:48 AM
As the old timers die off and leave, the new Pavels of the org will be built up to be the new "Young Turks" to fill their worn out shoes and fill up Lyn and Helga's coffers.
" Yet, in fact, the continued existence of society in a
civilized form depends absolutely on the LYM's generation. Not
only does the LYM typify the best recruits from their generation,
the educational and practical orientation established for, and by
the LYM is peculiarly suited to the needs for a youthful adult
leadership assigned to lead the entire population out of the
cultural morass of a society whose reigning generation is
destroying itself and civilization generally.
Without the effect assigned to the role of the LYM and
comparable young-adult programs, there is no reason to invest
confidently in the future of any nation of European civilization,
or, perhaps, even beyond. The LYM typifies the last available
hope, that, in time, the world can be rescued from the greatest
collapse, globally, world-wide, in modern world history as a
Whoever is getting money these days, the LYM is actually
earning it for us all."

As we continue we see how Lyn is now on to the next replacements of income generation which he and Helga will depend on.
Next, we will see how that after the LYM are built up as saviours of the universe from the final econmic collapse, their efforts are not quite enough to save humanity.
Since the new yutes now have a predicted work span of 50 years for Lyn and Helga, you may think that the LYM will have it easy.
I do not think so.


05-06-2006, 11:53 AM
After being praised as the real saviours of humanity, unlike the old worn out LCers in Leesburg who keep going to doctors and clinics, the LYM now have a new word in their life.
First you take what ever the LYM can give you, now you have to bring it in. Any you guys and girls thought that you were above this.
"FROM: Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. -
- 3:39 PM 4/29/2006 EDT -
My first week of reporting the sales performance outcome has
been a painful experience. Despite the continued fair
performance by Philadephia, the National Center, and Houston, the
LPAC results reflect a failure to recognize the crucial
importance of the LYM deployment. Although the trend in Baltimore
and Los Angeles reveals large potential for improvement, reports
from around the nation show that the "Boomers" generally do not
grasp the political realities of the role of the LPAC as the
driver on which our overall potential depends. On this account,
the U.S. performance and attitude are better than among elements
of the organization in Germany, a poorer overall performance
which chiefly reflects the reluctance to understand the crucial
role of mass= oriented political-campaign organizing in mustering
the moral support on which the overall performance of sales
representatives depends absolutely. The same problem seen in
Germany exists in Boomer circles within key elements of regional
organizations here, but the resistance to effective political
outreach is relatively much greater among Boomers in Germany, and
in the U.S.A.
This Thursday's webcast showed the rapid spread of
deep-going political acceptance in the U.S.A., as the
developments in the Democratic Party in California are a
conclusive demonstration of the fact that the effective existence
of the organization in every nation in which we are working
depends absolutely, and increasingly on the rule of political
campaigning by our independent organizations of young adults. In
the U.S. itself, the level of LPAC support determines the
possibility for the continued functional existence of the
association as a whole.
That lesson is still poorly understood among Boomers, even
Boomers among the leadership. The influence of the
"post-industrial" ideology embedded in the ranks of the "68ers,"
reflects an instilled aversion to meaningful forms of work which
spills over into a failure, among some of us, to recognize the
absolute distinction between gaining an income, and actually
earning one. As in earlier history of modern European
civilization, as in the case of he American Revolution,for
example, it is chiefly young adults, such as those in the 18-25
age-bracket who make the future of their nations. Every sane and
literate adult knows that the idea of the futu re of any nation
lies within the state of mind and activity of a leading portion
of young adults in the 18-25 bracket. It is the activity of those
young adults who inform the people as a whole that their nation,
their culture, does have a living future. It is not "issues"
which move the older generations; it is the perception, among the
older generations, that the nation has a future, a future
expressed by the role of the young adults who have about fifty
years, or more of productive life before them. Those are the
principles which separate merely gaining a meagre income, and
earning respectable degrees of support from among the population
in general."

There we go Pavel, you have a few decades of card table hustling and money to sign over for not just Lyn's remaining years, but Helga's golden years


05-06-2006, 12:08 PM
If you think I am just makingthis up, check out this site and see where a good deal of Larouche Pac money comes from
You will see that the org raised over 4 million dollars for LPAC, while still owing $233,000.
Now go see who the donors are and notice how a lot of money is from new LYM recruits and dead enders who have outside jobs.
There is a 5K "Donation" from a LYM whose father served time in prison for our financial crimes. When he left, he found out that he had more friends in prison than in Leesburg. He left the org and helped out other members who were left out to dry so to speak. Unfortunately, he passed away way too young. He left his only child some money. Guess where the money went after the check cleared?

No matter how much Pavel makes at a card table shrine, no matter how much he signs over, no matter how much he can make over the phone, it will never be enough and Humanity will always be one quota away from being saved.
This circus will never end, the collapse which ends everything will always be in the next fiscal quarter. Get ready for 24/7 fundraising as this memo is starting the race for the LYM.
No matter what promises of "reaching your full potential" were given to Pavel, his real potential is at a card table shrine for a few decades like Bill Ferguson. I would not doubt that Pavel has had his ego built up by telling him that the oligarchy has targeted him because he can be the key to changing the course of history. He needs to summon all of his powers to thwart the evil George Schultz and the Boston Globe, along with Harvard who are trying to silence Larouche.
The tragedy is that whatever skills a kid like Pavel had, they will be surpassed as the world progresses. What was a skill and potential career last year in Berkley will be old news in a few years. Like Bill, he may have no place to go except where he is told.
I can't insult a person like Pavel because many of us were as idealitic as he probably is. Many of us had domestic pressures and a lack of self confidence and experience to figure out what was going on. The org understands that very well and will give you that confidence and remove you from what ever pressure you think you had.
I hope his family and any other family always keep doors open and talk. Never send cash though and update your wills. You find out later that you can not get your younger years back.
Take a look at the Mars society upcoming conference next August and compare that to the lunacy you read from Lyn . Maybe a few years from now the Pavels of the org can pick up an old pamphlet and slap themselves in the head and say "WTF was I thinking?".


05-06-2006, 03:08 PM
Great stuff. Amazing that the stipends for the field hands appear from these records to be identical to what was (sometimes) paid out TWENTY FIVE YEARS AGO. I just hope that the borderline IQ Phil Rubinstein is forking over enough cash in CA to people to pay their rent. He claimed to understand transfinite arithmetic in NY, but could not quite handle finite arithmetic. A mixture of spite, impotence, and stupidity I suppose, to be fair. He is not alone in that.


05-08-2006, 01:08 PM
Sancho , most of the NC's are now at least over 50 years old. I would ask any LYM member to reread the May 2nd memo in the briefing by Lyn about money matters.
Reread this section please.
"People in the "68er" age-interval, as typified by those born between, approximately, 1945 and 1957, are reaching out toward the age of retirement from any vigorous employment. Those born shortly before 1945, are on the way to retirement age.
Thus, to state the cruel fact of the matter: who would make a long-term investment in their future economic contribution? Meanwhile,
those who entered the LYM ranks about five years ago, or somewhatlater, have more than fifty adult years of active economic life ahead of them; they represent a viable long-term investment."
This briefing seems to have been sent around the globe by current older members to former members whom they were friendly with asking and sometimes begging for help!
Can a current 18 to 25 year old LYM member with over 50 years of active economic (card table shrine and phone bank) life ahead of them ask some old timers Like Phil, Harley, Debra, Dennis, Larry, Barbara, Jeff, poor old Zeke, Chuck, Bob B. in Michigan, Shiela and her husband, Al D and his brother in Philly and anyone I missed what exactly is meant by that statement?
The liquor stores in Leesburg will have plenty of business as many older members are up to their necks and beyond in refinanced loans and credit cards.
It does seem like everything we organized against in the past like primitive accumulation and the greatest economic collapse of your lifetime has hit the members right in their senior years.
The fun has only begun for the LYMers. You will see an increased stream of various end of the economy and world briefings and quotas raised each week for a new mobilization. A new groundbreaking document will be released by Lyn about how the LYM can change the course of human history in the 2008 elections--- "if only we have the funds to alter the shape and destiny of the course of human events in your lifetime".
You could take any member from 1972 to the present day and they could write these memos every few years and you guys could not tell the difference.
Time goes by real fast, just look at the aged leftovers in Leesburg who are ready to be dumped like yesterday's trash cause the new models are in and are cheaper to run.


05-09-2006, 03:07 PM
Looks like Helga is ready to take over the world if this is any indication ( I'd love to see the list of signatories. But I suspect we will have to wait until they scrub it of those who have offered money to not be mentioned publicly.


05-10-2006, 05:20 AM
From the Helga News:
"A new 'Treaty of Westphalia' must guarantee the opening up and development of raw materials for all nations on this Earth, for at least the next 50 years."
I guess by raw materials she means the LYMers.


05-20-2006, 04:52 PM
There may be some new readers of this section who used to be in the LYM. In case you think that you are missing something, here is something I may have posted a while ago.
You did the right thing by escaping from the Bizarro world.
March 31, 2004
Barmy as three ferrets in a burlap sack.
I had another brush with Lyndon LaRouche's zany cultists this afternoon. It was a bright and cheerful day, and I was feeling full of beans. I was heading to the HUB for some pizza when I spied yet another of LaRouche's dupes flogging his table full of pamphlets with titles like 'Children of Satan II' and spewing untruth into the ears of the unwary...He was giving his little spiel to an unfortunate girl as I passed; I happened to catch sight of his notepad, on which I observed him scrawling what appeared to be geometry. I felt it my duty to whisper in the poor girl's ear as I passed that the LaRouche people were crazy, since they sort of are. Mr Cultist--I don't know his name, so let's call him Pickles--happened to overhear, and did protest. How could I say such a thing? Had I even read their stuff, he asked?
Pickles engaged me in discussion. Which is to say, after he found out I was a mathematician, he threw out more or less unconnected, off-topic factoids from mathematics and (once or twice) physics, trying to wow me and cow me with his erudition until I succumbed. The thing was, he got all of his mathematical and physical points fundamentally very wrong. Like the other LaRouchies I've talked with, Pickles was jam-packed with names, dates (some even correct), buzzwords, and even a few pieces of genuine information. None of it, however, made sense. I pointed out to him his factual errors. Perhaps I took a somewhat combative tone, but I think on the whole I was fairly civil. He tried to talk about heat but he didn't know what statistical mechanics was. He tried to talk about nuclear forces, but didn't know the difference between a lepton and a hadron. (He thought a positively-charged electron was a proton.) Just like the last one, he was all about demonising Isaac Newton and Euler; I've also heard and read LaRouchian assaults on Lagrange, Cauchy, Hermite, and others. They're all about Kepler, though. And Gauss. Gauss' proof of the Fundamental Theorem of Algebra seems to have mystical significance for them; I tried to explain that there are better modern proofs, but apparently most of modern mathematics is a malicious fraud ignoring the philsophical implications only Lyndon LaRouche has the wisdom to see. When he did his Newton/Kepler schtick, I tried to convince him that Newtonian gravitation was a hell of a lot more powerful than Kepler's laws of planetary motion; according to him, I was missing the point. After all, Newton was a warlock. And Kepler was an astrologer, I told Pickles; so? I kept hammering away at Pickles until he was completely sick of me, and he told me I was ignorant and closed-minded. A passing, gallant gentleman overheard, and leapt to my defense. He'd been dealing with LaRouchies for thirty years, he said, and it seemed he was even sicker of them than I am. He gave Pickles what you might call an earful. LaRouche's cult was packed with egomaniacs, he said, out to puff themselves up with fancy-seeming snippets of information they really didn't understand, flashing it around to make themselves seem superior and degrading anyone who argued with them. Which has certainly been true of all the LaRouche cultists I've met. In the end, Pickles got so sick of us that he told us to 'stop masturbating onto his table' and walked away.
It was a beautiful, beautiful moment.


05-20-2006, 04:54 PM

  • Part two ***
    Lyndon LaRouche seems to run a sort of intellectual cargo cult. He and his followers use mathematics like a talisman. They seem to think of it in magical terms. They scoop up bits and baubles and phrases from real mathematics, and they chant their stolen scraps like spells or incantations, as if the power resided in the words alone: as if saying it made them an Authority. And there is a certain power that comes from mathematics. I have yet to harness representation theory of semisimple Lie groups to make laser beams shoot from my eyes or bend the masses to my will, but there is still power. There is the power that comes from an ability to think logically and model the physical universe, but this is uninteresting to LaRouche and Pickles; this power takes long years of careful study to achieve. They want power over other people: they covet the power that comes with credibility and with 'expert' status. They mouth the words and expect the power to flow through them. Everything, to them, is about personality; nothing descends, in the end, to logic or fact. To discredit Newton's mathematical contributions they claim he was a warlock; they can't distinguish the man from his work. It doesn't matter if Newton was barmy as three ferrets in a burlap sack; he was still a genius. But it has to be all about personality to them, because without it, they are nothing. All they have is their Black Mass mockery of real scholarship, trappings and appearances. Their cargo-cult airfields. Which can fool someone, if they've never seen an airfield before. (Mathematically, most people haven't.) But when challenged they invoke their crude idols of bamboo and bone, utter their Words of Power...And it all fails them. The airplanes never land.
    And since it isn't big enough to deserve a posting of its own, I'll add here that Moonies have something far, far sillier than the Mormon Magic Underwear: Moonies have the Holy Handkerchief. After man and wife are properly joined by the Unification Church, they are to ritualistically mate on three consecutive days under the watchful eye of a photo of the Reverend Moon, having sprinkled the Holy Salt. Then they are to wipe their naughty bits with this Holy Handkerchief, which they are never allowed to launder. Ever.

05-21-2006, 09:34 AM
Hi Everyone. I just quit the movement a few months ago. I was in the Movement from November till March. I would love to hear from other members about their experience with this cult. I was from the L.A. Local by the way.


05-22-2006, 01:35 AM
Let me be the first to congratulate xlar for coming to his senses and leaving the Bizarro world. I have heard so many horror stories about LA that I hope you were not skinned alive financially and brutalized by your experience.
The big question, among several, is this. Did you cross paths with young Steve Renden who left here and Yale to proclaim Larouche as his Messiah?
Stve Renden will make his place in history, though not the way he imagines.


05-22-2006, 01:18 PM
Yes i did know steve. He's now $30,000.00 in debt because he dropped out of Yale. He has a Gf outside the movement who helps keep him sane. He has a great sense of humor and has not been beaten down yet. I think Harley is scared to do that because they're happy enough that he's even there. They'd rather have him slowly get warped then risk him leaving permanantly. Later on though they did mess with his head. They would say stuff like " George Bush went to yale. Do you want to be like George Bush?". That was after he was thinking of going back to school. Steve lived in a house with mostly new members. Steve, George, Mark, and I. I slowly saw how a lot of them, including myself would come home with less enthusiasm.
Oh and yes there is still a huge alcohol problem in the organzation. Some people would not just drink but get drunk every night.


05-22-2006, 02:11 PM
You should indeed be very proud of yourself for breaking through the mind control techniques they have been imposing on you. Unfortunately, only a few have been lucky to find realization and we have since been battling to find better ways of deprogramming the huge remainder.
I'm sure your story would be helpful: could you explain to us how you withstood the brainwashing or came back to terms with the real world?
By the way, I was also affiliated with the L.A. office. How is Cody and Ardena doing?


05-22-2006, 02:32 PM
Hello Xlar -- question for you, did you participate in any of Robert Beltran's drama workshops? He was quite the guy for the organization for a couple of years due to his interest in classical drama. I understand Harley briefed Beltran's cast for The Big Knife on Trumanism, and Harley used to call Beltran his friend. Is Beltran still doing workshops, or has he moved on to greener pastures? I am very curious as to any light you can shed on Beltran's participation and his current status.


05-22-2006, 02:37 PM
Cody and Ardena are considered youth leaders. A lot of people look up to them. I feel sorry for Ardena. I heard she had a promising carrear as a singer. I started to realise how nutty they were when we were organised for a cadre school. Prior to the event Leni told everyone we needed to make quota. This meant that we woke up at 5:00 am 3 days in a row and deployed till midnight with just one stir fry bowl. I remember thinking how nutty the movment was. I also noticed during one of Bruce Director's classes that he would just babble about nonsense. He would talk about the planets' orbit and say how it relates to Larouche's economics. One member that was very intimidating was Nick Walsh. I would ask him rational questions and he would become this rage ball. Some members that I liked were Tim, Lewis, and Sky. Tim and Lewis were into art and history.It was nice talking to them about history when larouche's conspiracy theories werenn't mixed in with it.
As far as fitting into the real world, I'm making progress but still have some problems. It's harder for me to enjoy the hobbies I use to like.


05-22-2006, 02:41 PM
Yeah, Beltran is still doing drama workshops. I only went to a few of them because I usualy took a nap during that time. Sunday was our only day off besides reading days so whenever I had the day off I would either read in an area far away from the office or get some rest. I guess subconsciouscly I didn't feel comfortable around the movement. Financialy speaking I think Beltran is ok. He has a house and not sure how much he donates to the movement. He only shows up once a week so I'm not sure how much he buys into Larouche's conspiracy theories.


05-22-2006, 03:53 PM
xlar, we once posted here a comparison of stipends between LYM and the 1980's. Adjusting for inflation, the LYM are paid 50% less.
How do members survive in a high cost area like LA? Did you get a check from ASDI with taxes taken out?
Phil has a great history of squeezing members dry. He would be selling your blood if he could cash instead of cookies and an apple juice.
He used to have the members in his local call their parents about some illness which could be cured for a few hundred in cash. It happened every 4 years and was called matchingfunditis.
The only person even more crazy about sending Lyn money was former LA honcho Will Wertz. Wertz was sent to jail for this while only peeople who worked Phil's boiler rooms went to prison.
Leni telling about quotas is funny. She is Phil's wife and he has been trying to hit quota and create a mass movement for over thirty years.
Has Leni given you the "How can you ask that question? Don't you know that a nuclear bomb can fall on us any minute" speech. Phil can't figure out that the glasses of Rheingau clicked for years in toasts to him. Imagine, a Jewish guy still raising money for Lyn 20 years after the infamous Jew Jokes were told to certain people in the National Office . He may have been too busy throwing chairs and pounding tables to hit quota to object.


05-22-2006, 07:43 PM
"As far as fitting into the real world, I'm making progress but still have some problems. It's harder for me to enjoy the hobbies I use to like." It has been years since I left the organization, and I made the mistake of never going to therapy afterwards making my readjustment to reality unnecessarily prolonged. So if you or your family can afford it, try to find a good therapist to talk to for a few sessions just to get rebalanced. There are a lot of bad ones out there, so watch out. You also needn't get a cult specialist - perhaps ought not get one - just an experienced and sympathetic ear. My major problem was guilt: I was in much longer than you and really believed I was in the vanguard of humanity so that when I quit for years afterward I felt tremendous guilt that I had "abandoned humanity." You may have other issues: just find someone to talk to who can help you regain perspective. Just remember you did what you thought was the right thing and had all the right reasons for joining: it is not your fault that this turned out to be a criminal enterprise wrapped in a cult of personality. Your good heart will lead you to more productive ways to help people in the future than the insanely grandiose one of "saving humanity." Good luck.


05-23-2006, 05:39 AM
What a coincidence.
Every time Robert Beltran makes a public appearance, ex-LHLs and closet LHLs appear out of nowhere to claim knowledge of the inner workings of the organisation. You've just fallen for the oldest ploy in the PR handbook.
Sorry guys. I wouldn't believe a word this dude says.


05-23-2006, 09:24 AM
And I still don't understand the fascination with this character. You'd think he was Lee Strasberg. I used to watch _Voyager_ and thought long before knowing of his involvement with the NCLC that he couldn't act his way out of a paper bag. But I guess I'm missing something.


05-23-2006, 12:47 PM
Sancho - I just like keeping tabs since I am a fan. I thought he had pretty much left LHL's orbit, but based on Xlar's comments it sounds like he is still hanging with the organization, although his participation isn't being trumpeted as it was before.
Wanderer - I think some of the ex-members here are in a better position than either of us to say whether or not Xlar's comments ring true or false.


05-23-2006, 01:54 PM
The one thing that suggests to me that the Grendons, etc. may be the same troll is that they are all uniformly bad spellers. The troll may even be anti-LaRouche just trying to stir up interest in this bulletin board again. Also, xlarouchie spells realize "realise" so that he may be Canadian like that antisemitic Dune-fanatic drunkenhegel/Dr Ritter. Who knows. Even if none of us wrote here not another word, all the foregoing posts would convince anyone of moderate sanity to steer entirely clear of the LaRouche gang. We have done our job. I have been out of the organization far too long to know whether what xlarouchie says rings true or not. To describe Grendon as having a wonderful sense of humor, however, seems most unlikely, at least based upon his turgid, mother-dominated ramblings here. Again, who knows. LaRouche will die soon, and the whole sham/scam will come apart at the seams. Requiescat in pace.


05-24-2006, 01:50 AM
Steve is quite funny in retrospect. Look back at the last few years of part III and II to read his posts.
He had a lot of information provided here for him to question his new found friends. Perhaps it was too much to ask him to use empirical data in analysis.
We predicted that he would be in debt and manning a card table shrine with a dead ender.
So far, our economic forecasting is ahead of the cult's. If he can't get his girl to join, then she will be made into a variation of evil and mother's fears who is holding him back in potentcy. After the honeymoon period, Steve has that May 2nd memo by Lyn to start raising serious bucks.
If he doesn't hit the quota, he will be considered "blocked" in org lingo and can expect some late night sessions and some intimate talk about his outside female interests.
There is no shortage of nuclear war mobes, end of the economy mobes, money mobes to hit Steve with over and over and over. A regular Twilight Zone episode for Steve.
I would encourage exlar to describe his experiences. The names may change but the story has been running for 40 years.


05-24-2006, 05:58 AM
"The ontological implication in that case, is of the same quality as that which Gauss made, in refuting the blunders of Euler et al., for his clarification of the fundamental principle of algebra. The essential point, underlying both the discoveries of Leibniz and the defense of Leibniz by Gauss's work, and, most emphatically, the work of Bernhard Riemann, is that an experimentally demonstrable universal physical principle, when treated as an object of the human mind, is, by implied definition, an object of thought, an idea whose existence is as big as the universe. It, as a principle, is never containable within the bounds of any local object of sense-perception. Yet, its practical effect on the world of sense-certainty is as unavoidable as it is implicitly universal. The action this principle expresses, appears as the infinitesimal in the small."
--LaRouche, "Cities of the Plain"
It was so hard to settle on the MOST nonsensical piece to pull from this latest product of Lyn's advancing dementia, but I think this one is at least as good as any other. I challenge anyone to demonstrate how this makes any sense at all in any possible logical universe.
Once again: This is your brain. This is your brain on LaRouche.


05-24-2006, 08:39 AM
He is simply using verbose and unstructured methods of speaking to steer the ability of his unwary readers to catch the holes in his logic: you will often find that there is no relationship between his premise and conclusion.


05-24-2006, 09:05 PM
Hi this is xlarouchie, for some reason my account wasn't working after a few posts so I had to make a new account.


05-24-2006, 09:15 PM
I quit the movement 2 months ago. I guess you think I'm still in the mvoement because I don't have animosity against some of the members. Well the truth is the members aren't the evil people who know whats realy going on. They're just fooled into believing in Larouche's garbage. I met some good people in the movement who's lives are now ruined. The past few months have been a rollercoaster for me as well. When I first left I had this terrible guilt trip but after exercising and hanging out with my friends the idea of the economy falling apart sounded silly. I'm also getting back into hobbies I enjoyed before I joined. In someways things that I use to take for granted are so precious to me. In fact just knowing that I'm free now. It's a beautiful feeling. Every so often I get plagued with thoughts that are very disturbing but I'm doing better now. One thought that constantly plagues me is " If I only didn't run into their table" or "If only I didn't give them my #"


05-25-2006, 01:32 AM
Yes, those were my feelings exactly, but still try to talk to a professional for a few sessions. You have been traumatized without being aware of it. Also, if you see some of my posts above, I state over and over that some of the best people I have ever known were - and many remain - in that organization. One reason I post here is to help show them that there is life after LaRouchian lunacy. I know that feeling of freedom, especially on Saturday mornings when I wake up knowing I don't have to deploy. Ahhh!
Best of luck.
P.S. I would advise you to conceal your identity: the LaRouchites are very vindictive. When I began to post here, I informed my local police precinct that if anything unusual should ever happen to me, the first person they should talk to is Jeff Steinberg.


05-26-2006, 03:41 AM
Hello, all US EX-Lyns! As a Swedish Lyndon watcher, I must ask you all: What did Lyndon tell you folks about Swedish PM Olof Palme? The Swedish branch of the movement, European Workers Party, ran a furious hate campaign against Olof Palme for ten years, and they didn't stop when he was murdered. How was this discussed within the movement at the time? Did you meet Swedish activists?
(Message edited by Swedish_lyn_watcher on May 26, 2006)


05-26-2006, 05:11 AM
When I was in (long before the assassination) he together with other Social-Democratic-types such as Brandt and Kennedy were villified (which I found strange for a putatively "labor" party.) In retrospect I don't think it was so much a case of LaRouche any more trying to distinguish himself from others on the left, so much as trying to suck up to right-winger dollars. I met at most one Swedish member, but recall nothing about Palme: at the time he was simply villified as much as say Kissinger later: Palme and Kissinger at different times being seen by LaRouche as personal enemies who were considered to be actively conspiring against him. Otherwise LaRouche is entirely irrational: his "method" yields the same enemies list that throwing a hundred names in a hat and drawing out ten at random to become your personal enemies does.


05-26-2006, 09:40 AM
Sancho, you wrote
>so much as trying to suck up to right-winger dollars
When did this occur, according to your recollection? In Sweden, the LaRouchites came into sight in 1973 under the alias ELC. In 1976 they formed EAP (European Workers Party) under the slogan 'Join and form a truely international communist party'. Already before forming the party, the Palme hatred campaign was their signum, attacking him in classical right-wing manners and M.O., but with typical leftist rhetoric. It is known that EAP managed to raise right-winger money, but not until the rightward turn that occurred in 1980 (in Sweden).
What is interesting about the Swedish LaRouchites Palme campaign, is that it fit in very well with the Palme hatered of the 'conventional' right, which is to say that their campaign was not odd and curious, just a little more extreme than what Sweden was used to - at the time. However, EAP set the standard for the Palme hatred in the mid 70's and they did attract followers by - among other things - this hate campaign.


05-26-2006, 09:47 AM
What about LaRouche and Richard Nixon? When going through the LaRouche history, it is hard to find any critical sayings on Nixon. Did I miss something, or is this actually the case? It's puzzling though, as Henry Kissinger is villain #1. Wouldn't Nixon be #2?
Did LaRouche oppose the Vietnam War at the time? (His anti-Palme campaign indicates the opposite; the way by which they attacked Palme was the same as the one of those who attacked him for being pro-FNL/anti-US).
(Message edited by swedish_lyn_watcher on May 26, 2006)


05-26-2006, 11:10 AM
My recollection is that as early as 1974 the LaRouchites were sniffing around Republican circles - which is how they ended up being such good friends of antisemite right-wing extremists as Roy Frankhauser and others in the Liberty Lobby, then America's largest gaggle of Holocaust-deniers. By that time of course the war had basically ended. From what I know now of how LaRouche operates, I suspect their hostility to Palme and others may indeed have been occasioned by a personal rebuff to the LaRouchites. How else to explain such continuing Satanic hatred at arbitrary individuals? But then, I am no psychiatrist.


05-26-2006, 11:23 AM
1974... Republicans... What about Nixon? And Lyns view on Watergate?


05-26-2006, 01:30 PM
I don't recall what his view was of Nixon or Watergate. But his modus operandi is to take the side which is being (usually legitimately) prosecuted or persecuted (Nixon, Marcos, Teamsters, et al.) and sidling up to them so that he can shake money out of their pockets on the grounds that the world's evil forces are after that person. For example, see 1980s EIR stories which characterize Marcos as a philosopher king. In 1974 Republicans were feeling besieged in the wake of Watergate, so guess who was there boiling the phones?


05-26-2006, 02:04 PM
When reading earlier posts in this thread, I found the following in one of your posts:
"...once the Crazy Uncle (LaRouche) dies - and his empty-headed hangers-on are routed by the more rational members - it might be possible for a group of members to shed all the zaniness, cultism, and wooly "thinking" of LaRouche to isolate the best of Labor Committee policy and thinking and fight for it and to use its intelligence networks to serve as a gadfly on the butt of this disintegrating republic."
Does this mean that the LC:s really can outlive LaRouche, and that a non-nonsense post-LaRouche movement can be established? If so, hypothetically, what would its policies be built on? Political targets? Left or right? Isn't it more probable that Helga Z-Lr inherits the crown?


05-26-2006, 08:41 PM
Mr. Swedish LW, you raise some historical questions which may help yopu in Europe.
First, never view Lyn and whatever front group you run into as legitmate in anything or operating with ratioanale rhyme or reasons. The whole traveling circus is based on a cult of personality and having various layers of deception among the membership.
What ever will get a targetted strata money or bodies for Lyn is what counts. You can say anything and on a dime and for a dime, change everything overnight.
In the last days of the student protests on US campuses came Students for a Democratic Society, SDS. Into this milleau came Lyn who became a marxist revolutionary for the first batch of 18 to 25 year old college kids who needed an excuse not to go to class. Lyn allied himself with some students and thus the "labor Committee SDS" was formed and trust funds were quickly depleted.
Since everyone believed that the CIA was powerfull, Lyn made the CIA into the mightiest conspiratorial force on the face of the earth. During Watergate, Lyn actually testified on some Watergate hearing and denounced it as a CIA plot against Nixon. Even though the members thought we were Marxist hell bent on a new socialist order, Lyn and inner security people were starting to meet with various right wing groups.
Hocus Pocus and now the Rockefellers and the usual far far right views of the CFR and Trilateral commission become our staples. David was the banker and Nelson went from the NY State Governor to being the Vice President under Ford which proved that Lyn was right.
In the mid 70's every piece of lit we produced was about the Rockefellers and the role of the staff doing research was to always prove it with any one who we hated. Even if we ran for a local council race we would put out leafletts that the person is a stooge and connected to Rockefeller.
What you must notice is how Lyn creates his own version of events whereby we defended Nixon because he was being set up by Rockefeller. You can see in old Campaigners and New Solidarities that Lyn even claimed that the actions of the LC prevented a CIA coup in the US.


05-26-2006, 09:06 PM
With a growing collection of 18 to 25 year old youth, we created the US Labor Party and began the transformation to clean cut conservative kids at US Airports with card table shrines battling the Moonies for floor space.
Unbeknowst to most members, Lyn and the security staff were meeting with Willis Carto of the Liberty Lobbly and a guy named Mitch Werbell who invented a deadly machine gun favored by killers around the globe. The boys were sent to Georgia for training in weapons and security while Lyn began his first taste of the good life arriving on Werbell's farm in helicopters. We hired Werbell's friends as security for Lyn and created a crazy relationship where Werbell and security people knew Lyn was nuts and would feed him lines about assasination plots while Lyn would believe them and somehow, plenty of money was shifted around.
I can't recall the whole story, but, one of the security people we hired went to a TV reporter about hearing plans by some in the org to kill Kissinger with a remote controlled airplane. The context it was said in I do not know, but I would get concerned when you see a cult with guns.
AS the 1980's rolled on we had dumped Marxism as that angle was done and found new riches on the right side of the fence. Rockefeller basically disappeared one day off of the publications and the Zionists and the British became our enemy while we went form supporting the Russian Ruble to warning people about how the Democrats would surrender and the Ruble was the new currency.
Lyn fond himself on a podium with Reagan in a 1980 New Hampshire NRA forum I think and parlayed that to his now being an advisor to Reagan. We quickly called up Reagan fund raising lists and warned them that Regan is a good amn who has the CFR and Trilat boys trying to take him over. Even though Lyn is a Democrat, give money to us and we can save Reagan.
Palme was always in our publications. The first time I saw him was as a caricature as an axe wielding psycho form a Bergman film. We always had cartoons of a pimpled face Palme with an axe in the 1970's. In the 1970's we attacked him as not being a real socialist since only Lyn was a real Socialist.
In the 1980's we were now the biggest anti Russians on the face of the planet. Our whole campiagns were about the take over the world by Russia and how the Russian Orthodox Church was running Russia with a "Third Rome" empire plan of conquest. In this plans, the Democratic party were the traitors. Palme was one of our biggest eneimies since we printed that he was KGB run, blackmailed, influenced, married, you take your pick.
The members were on endless around the clock deployments 7 days a week to prevent Nuclear war and a Soviet takeover. Of course, raising money would stop this. What it really stopped was Lyn being thrown out of 5 star hotels as he and Helga jet setted on the Concorde and had a high life style.
What the org does is take some news and create a univers for members to think that they are the players rahter than being played by Lyn and Helga. Staying out all night and raising money would stop Nuclear War.
Then Palme was killed and we were named.
I have an intersting article next about this.


05-26-2006, 09:19 PM
The Euro org was always in debt and the only thing which counted was Germany. The Germans considered the rest of the locals as culturally inferior. Sweden was always considered a crazy place and we would hears rumours of drug usage and bizarre happenings.
Things got more bizarre in the US when one suspect was revealed to be one of our own memebrs.
I can not say that this exerpt is true or not.

  • **

    Viktor Gunnarsson, the first suspect in the assassination of Swedish statsminister Olof Palme in Stockholm on February 28, 1986, was himself murdered outside Boone, North Carolina, during the early morning of December 4, 1993. Just before the killing, Borge Wingren, a former Swedish police inspector, had written a book, entitled He Killed Olof Palme - naming Gunnarsson, who often boasted of having committed the crime, as the statsminister's shooter - and now, it seemed, he had finally gotten what he most deserved.
    Gunnarsson was a neo-Nazi, with all kinds of connections to covert operators, especially in the Central Intelligence Agency. Well before Palme's assassination, he established a Stockholm branch of the European Workers' Party (EWP), a right-wing group, despite its name, founded by the infamous Lyndon LaRouche. It was known for putting up posters around the Swedish capital, contrasting Palme's mentor, Tage Erlander, as the nation's father (landsfader) with his former secretary, Palme, the nation's betrayer (landsförrädare). For eliminating such vermin, LaRouche's group recommended vigorous applications of DDT.
    In the fall of 1985, Gunnarsson went to an EWP convention in London, an assembly that the famous Soviet military historian, Edinbrugh's Professor John Erickson, helped put together for finally helping arrange the downfall of the USSR. Erickson, given the unprecedented contacts he had developed with the Soviets, especially in the Red Army, in helping Cornelius Ryan research The Last Battle , and in writing his own magisterial Stalin's War with Germany , had concluded that time had finally run out on the USSR's attempt to contain America's 'deterrence by puishment' through its b ridgehead in Scandinavia by Russia's defense in depth - what he elaborated on in his 1985 article "The Soviet View of Deterrence: A General Survey."
    more to follow

05-26-2006, 09:28 PM Continued**
And Gunnarsson came back from the conference to help arrange conditions on the ground in Stockholm by providing deceptions for the real assassin, an agent of former SAS Major David Walker's KMS firm, whose shooting was to provide the trigger for the whole operation. While Erickson came to Stockholm, demanding that Palme do something to stop Soviet intrusions into Swedish territory, Gunnarson did everything he could to make it look as if he was preparing to kill Palme. By now, a reasonable shot with a pistol, thanks to weapons training he had had with some US Marines from the Embassy in a basement of a house in a Stockholm suburb, Gunnarson told his girl friend that the statsminister would be shot with ammunition capable of penetrating bullet-proo f jackets while the performance of his bodyguards was being reassessed. On the day of the murder, a friend of Gunnarsson's was surprised to see that he had shaved off his moustache.
On the night of the assassination, Gunnarsson did everything he could to make it look as if he were the assassin. He had an apartment along the escape route the real assassin took in making his getaway. He admitted that he was in the area when the shooting took place, and he had no alibi for where he actually was when it happened. Shortly after Palme was shot, he apparently tried to flag down a cab in a most agitated state, and then he barged into a cinema, 45 minutes after the movie had started, in a similar state which caught the attention of two girls who were sitting nearby.
Little wonder that when the plotters' plan to make Soviet spy Stig Bergling the real decoy failed , and the assassination did not trigger the final showdown with the Soviets - thanks to more spying for Moscow by the Agency's Aldrich "Rick" Ames and the Bureau's Robert Hanssen, the refusal of Altantic Fleet Commander Admiral Carl Trost to join up Task Force Eagle with NATO's Anchor Express Exercise for a military thrust across Norway's Finnmark region into the USSR's Kola Peninsula, and the disaster which occurred to the Norwegian forces when they attempted to move through the Vassdalen Valley - the Stockholm police were obliged to go after Gunnarsson, but it achieved little result. The police were so eager to indict him that it showed a key witness a photograph of Gunnarsson before a police lineup including him - what only resulted in the resignation of prosecutor K. G. Svensson after he had ordered Gunnarsson's release. Then an intensiv e examination of the jacket he was apparently wearing at the time for gunpowder traces proved fruitless.

  • *
    The death of Gunnarsson was not the end of the story. During the death of Palme and investigation, we were under investigation or trial for financial fraud. At the end of the Reagan 2nd term , Iran Contra was the issue and we incorporated that into our crazy world.
    A common strategy the org has is to take a crime or problem we have and incorporate it into the biggest conspiracy ever to stop Lyn. In Iran Contra we called up some old rich women who Oliver North was calling and thus the whole case against us was not of fraud but Iran Contra and Larouche.
    This is all taking place during raids, TV shows on us, a lawsuite we lost where calling Lyn a "Small Time Hitler" was not slander and the Palme investigation.

05-26-2006, 09:43 PM
The NY Times printed this article about Palme and Larouche.

  • LaRouche Documents Linked to Palme Case

    Published: December 5, 1986
    The Federal Bureau of Investigation obtained documents during a raid of the headquarters of Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr. that could be helpful to Sweden in the search for the killer of Prime Minister Olof Palme, American law enforcement officials said today.
    The officials said the documents did not link Mr. LaRouche, the conspiracy theorist, or his groups to the murder last February, but suggested that his adherents had been critical of Mr. Palme and had followed the murder investigation.
    A spokesman for Mr. LaRouche, Dana Scanlon, denied any connection between the groups and the death, and said the statements by the American officials were classical K.G.B. disinformation. The K.G.B. is the Soviet internal security agency.
    One official said it would take a quantum leap to assume that the evidence provided a strong link.
    In March, the Swedish police released Ake Lennart Victor Gunnarsson after having charged him with involvement in the slaying. He reportedly had ties to a European rightist group linked to Mr. LaRouche; the European group denied it.
  • **
    What is the standard operation is to get the members to forget anything about our deeds and not to ask about what happened. You create an elaborate and wild conspiracy and have the members sell that at card table shrines.
    You also insert Lyn into whatever is big in the news and further create delusions of grandeur while being quiet about other crimes and misdomeanors.
    In the Jeremiah Duggan case the new LYM have no idea of our history. Thus, it does not seem odd that many European members who were at the conference and could help the police or family quickly showed up in the US.
    Jeremiah's mother is not a grieving parent, but part of a British/ Dick Cheny plan to prevent Lyn from winning the White House.
    Bush replaced David Rockefeller and Cheney is Nelson. Lyn is now casting his net on the left. Clinton was "good but flawed" and needed Lyn to help him during the last term to repay him for getting lyn out of prison. Russia is now good.
    The more it changes the more it stays the same if you are familiar with the whole crazy story from the beginning.
    You do not see Lyn's son in LYM or the LC, only working on Wall Street.

05-26-2006, 11:19 PM
Mr. xlcr4life,
Wow! That's fantastic!! Some comments:
1. Where did the Gunnarsson article appear? The story outlined in it, telling that Gunnarsson did have an active, deliberate connection to EWP, is contradicted by the police investigation (and Gunnarssons own testimony) according to which his membership was based on him signing a petition for "Make the world a better place for everybody", the signatures of which document were later used for registering EWP for participation in the 1985 general election. However, if it could be verified that Gunnarsson did participate in a 1985 EWP conference, that would indeed be a sensation to the Palme assassination investigation.
2. The assassination plot against Henry Kissinger you refer to, when did that event occur? I am trying to find out when Kissinger became a villain. Was it before of after Nixon had left office?
3. You say "Sweden was always considered a crazy place and we would hears rumours of drug usage and bizarre happenings.". Do these rumours refer to people within the EWP or do they refer to Sweden in general? EWP people using drugs would really be a fun story, Lyn at the time run a furious campaign against Palme for dealing drugs in Sweden. Some years later, the Anti Drug Coalition was formed.
4. The quote "You also insert Lyn into whatever is big in the news and further create delusions of grandeur" is interesting. By those terms, the Palme assassination - although embarrassing for the Swedish branch, implying defections - became an asset. "Look at us, we are important, we are on the news all over the world. Even the Soviets take us seriously!"
5. The Swedish leadership from 1973 to 1986, did they have close contacts with LaRouche? Did you meet them? (I suppose you weren't one of them!)
6. What do you think will happen to the movement when LaRouche dies? Will it survive? Who will become leader?
Please, keep the discussion running!


05-26-2006, 11:40 PM
On the LaRouche family. xlcr4life writes
"You do not see Lyn's son in LYM or the LC, only working on Wall Street."
When reading what Dennis King wrote in 1980 (, one finds that young Daniel to some extent was active within the LC:
Not surprisingly, support for LaRouche's presidential campaign is evident on all levels of the Computron staff. According to FEC records, 22 employees of the firm including 3 vice presidents, 5 systems analysts, 11 programmers, the office manager, and the staff attorney contributed a total of $6,510 to Citizens for LaRouche between Jan. 1 and Nov. 26, 1979. This was almost 20 percent of all LaRouche campaign funds contributed in New York State during the eleven-month period. And it was followed by additional contributions in December and January, including one from Daniel LaRouche, 22 year old son of the candidate, who works as a programmer in Computron's main office.
Is anything more known about young Daniel?


05-26-2006, 11:40 PM
Wishful thinking on my part. I mean, wouldn't it be great to have a rational organization promoting classical civilization in school curricula while at the same time promoting scientific and industrial progress and opposing insane wars? A dream devoutly to be wished. But you're right, not out of the ashes of this outfit.


05-27-2006, 12:14 AM
>...promoting classical civilization
>...scientific and industrial progress
>...and opposing insane wars
Of course! All mine! But I think the problem with a "reform LC" is that the movement can never attract the masses, the movement is clinically free of joy, happiness, appreciation of life, nature, social interaction... I mean, who could possibly be attracted to the (boring, tedious and non-sexy) original proof of the fundamental theorem of algebra (as opposed to the elegant, futuristic, modern ones), if your life and personality is constrained by Soviet-style good citizen dogma? People are irrational, and that is the beauty of being human.
And a follow-up to all Ex-Lyns here: When at LC, did you ever have fun? Did you ever laugh? Did you ever enjoy nature? (I do not refer to harmonic averages found in maple leaves.) Music? (I do not refer to recursive equations derived from a Bach fugue) Love? Literature?


05-27-2006, 04:38 AM
Mr. SwedeLW, It is Memorial Day weekend here in the US, so I have to answer some of these questions in blocs.
The article I posted an exerpt from is web based and is part of a general site on the CIA and other things. I will look for it and post it for you to see the whole article. There many sites like this which all cross pollinate one another. Always take these things with skeptical mind and just look for the facts. Gunnarson did die in North Carolina and Dana Scanlon is also dead, Lyn still lives.
Dennis King has several pages of our activities against Kissinger. The securiy guy was a hired outsider named Lee Fick. According to King's book, number two security guy Paul Goldstein questioned Fick about pretty crazy actions against Kissinger. Fick went to NBC and told reporters about this.
In our crazy world, the idea of violence was not the issue. In usual fasion, we now made NBC part of the international oligarchy who wants to kill Lyn and of course the usual suspects like The Queen of England, Kissinger, KGB, Knights of Malta , Venetians and Satan were in on it.
One of big organising tools was using anti Gay platforms. That is being too nice, we , and that means Lyn was of the extreme homophobic lunacy. We distributed articles by Lyn called "The politics of faggotry" which had Kissinger and our enemies as part of a raging homo cult, hell bent in leather trying to take over the world.
One of the nastier things we did was repeatedly distribute leafletts and spread rumours that Kissinger had black mailed people by taping them having sex at the Carlyle hotel with young boys. We then just said that Henry himself was in the videos. Another thing I often heard Lyn screech about at conferences was that Kissinger killed a young Mexican waiter in a Mexican resort by throwing a wine bottle at his head when he spurned advances.
This is a sickness of Lyn and the org which was also carried out in our AIDS campaigns. In local races when we were the US Labor Party we would some times paint candidates as child molestors and dope fiends.
Read enough about what we did and you will see a pattern of being used by people to harrass and intimidate people.
The Kissinger tirade started as we changed from Socialists to now blaming everything in the world on The Jews, Zionist Bankers, Israel and what ever had a Star of David attached to it. Look up "Willis Carto and the Liberty Lobby" to see how what we were meeting with and sharing love fests with.
AS far as Danny Larouche goes. Lyn tried to prop him up on stage at a conference, but he did not seem enthusiastic. Danny was a great chess player and never really was part of the org in public sense. Lyn did one of the most despicable things a few years ago to elderly female members who had abortions for the org and were now in menapause. Lyn came into the office and proudly annonced that his son Danny's wife just gave birth and he was a proud grandpa!
Quite a few cried in private at what 30 years of this lunacy has led to.
You job is not to have fun in the org but to be on and endless tread mill for Lyn. The most cynical thing you would hear back then is what you still hear Lyn and the deadenders tell the LYM today. As you get up at 5 AM to spend time rasing money till midnight, you hear the voice say "Now go have fun!". You can read this travesty many a time and hear it on the LYM website of speeches and transcripts.


05-27-2006, 05:13 AM
The guy who wrote this seems to be in Sweden.
Again, take everything with a skeptical mind and just extract facts.
The rumours of drug usage in Sweden was by the Swedish org. This all started when the brother of a European leader went to the locals and found people in a rather bizarre state of health. The story I heard was that he quietly left the org and returned to the states and kept his distance from the org. You hear stuff like this years later when someone asks "what happened to so and so".
The most common explanation I can think of is starvation. The Germans were pretty well fed as Helga had her bee workers loyal to her while the rest of the org was in extreme poverty. One guy we sent over seas to evade a US Grand Jusy ended up in Italy where he was shocked at how the Italian locals were literally starving and eating group meals of cheap pasta each night.
In Weisbaden you had a pecking order of nationalities so that the bulk of money we sent went to Helga for dispersement and the other loclas were on their own. This all gets real murky as we had money shipped around the globe in ways which caused all sorts of rumours.
The big story among some of the current members is over who gets what ever money was hidden as Helga and Danny are in line. I myself don't think there is a hidden booty as we were pretty stupid when it came to money. We raised millions and millions and lost everything. Lyn would fall for one security scam after another which siphoned a ton of money from the org. The problem is that Lyn would have the say on where money was sent. In this environment, tremendous funds were siphonjed off in a black hole of security and other schemes which no low level member would know about.
There is nothing about the org or Lyn that you can take at face value.
Look at current LYM members. They have no clue what goes on and what the history is. A guy like Steve is given a tutorial about this and he thinks that he will be in neo Platonic heaven saving humanity.
Most of the ex LYM members leave and wonder what the hell happened to them. They have no clue that Lyn, Helga have a lot of experience running a cult. Phil and Harley have done the same thing for decades to people.
Mr Swede, try to read all of the posts here and get a good idea of how this all works. We pretty much have provided a good lesson over the 1,500 or so posts. Ask your self after reading this would you join the org? Yiu see what you may think the org is and what iot really is are very different. People join for their reasons which are not bad. Lyn knows this and will let you believe that as you slowly change.
Time and time again you will read about how people change as they stay longer in the org. ExLar should give us some info about LA for people.


05-27-2006, 11:51 AM
>Ask your self after reading this would you join
>the org? You see what you may think the org is
>and what it really is are very different.
I've never had the intention of joining the organization! Since the very first time I encountered the org, which must have been in 1978, when I was 12 years old, I have considered them right wing extremists, and I still do. I detest what they pretend to be, and I detest what they really are.
However, I'm puzzled by them, their cult, their devotion... And I also wonder how the ex-Lars go on with their lives after leaving the cult. Do they become 100% anti? Or just 50%? Do they still share the ideas, but the egostripping was too intimate, the quotas too high and the meals too disappointing? Would they be interested in a "soft LC"? Do they dream of the good ol' days of 2001 or 1996 or 1991 or 1986 or 1981 or 1976 or 1971?
And I also wonder what the old Swedish vanguard thinks today about their past. Superficially, they are successful in their new lives, and they NEVER speak publicly of their past. It's interesting that none of these people mention their past affiliation to LC in their bios, you can never read things like "1973-1986 I wrote for EIR, and then I finished my studies at XYZ university".
I know this may not be the forum for such a discussion, and I will withdraw if I'm considered to be out of line by these writings, but this is the only chance I have to get in contact with ex-Lars.
Thanks for letting me share my thoughts with you.


05-27-2006, 01:24 PM
There are no criteria for submission to this forum, so anyone is free to post what they like.
As an ex-member, the most salient fact is that I joined with the utmost sincerity (and of course the poorest judgment) until the psychological abuse became intolerable; then there was the shame afterward of having belonged to such a lunatic organization. How does one explain afterwards to sane people that you fought for humanity by joining this bunch? So, best to keep mum on the entire subject. By the way, I regarded myself as a Marxist throughout my entire tenure, although the right-wing stuff was clearly written on the wall by the time of my exit. Just another human predicament where one chooses to believe in something in the face of all evidence to the contrary and finding out too late that things were quite otherwise. If you wish to understand this behavior further, it's probably best to read up in the refereed literature on cults generally. The ICLC is no different than the Moonies or Scientologists, except less successful at recruitment.


05-27-2006, 02:23 PM
When people join the org it is with a higher purpose in mind. They also are recruited by another member, not Larouche. The members will have a way of making things seem logical and believable to others during a sales pitch or recruitment. Lyn rarely does the recruiting as you have a Wizard of Oz type of mystique built up.
In fact, one the ideas you pick up reading these posts is how often we had to hide Lyn from the public as he would spin out of control and end up looking like the pscycho he is. A lot of memebrs dropped out of the research and intel sections of the org when they either met Lyn in person privately or went on a meeting with their contact and Lyn and saw him go nuts and destroy all of your work in a single half hour.
A lot of these people were pretty smart and those who had some education used their contacts to get jobs or return to school and then find work in a field that interests them.
Considering how crazy this whole thing is, would you advertise this to a future employer?
The real sad cases are the people who left late in life and have no support structure of parents or relatives to help them. The trek back to productivity is long as you left with a huge debt and vital years stolen from you.
If you are a female, you must throw having children into that mix if you leave very late in child bearing years.
Most of the people whom I know are doing quite well and rebounded after starting from scratch. Now this is very unscientific as I only know successful ex LCers. In the org it seems that the people you knew who were somewhat flaky and had no where to go, stayed in and are now just a burden on the cash flow.
In real life, no one really knows about the org as time goes on. There are so many things in peoples lives that Lyn is a speck and the org is a dot. The biggest hang up I found among ex members is that you have this voice in your head that the person you are meeting after leaving knows about the org. They do not and you begin to see how your head was filled up with lunacy the longer you were in.


05-27-2006, 02:25 PM
As far as ex memebrs being anti org, remember this is a cult they left. No one wishes to be associated with a cult like this in public. Especially if you have a family. Most people who have an interest in the org do so anonymously in a place like this or
The good news is that through the web, so much info about the cult is available that I find an endless supply of blogs and web based discussions which have any Larouche source quickly discredited and shown the door.
A site like this is then very valuable in that even if you never see another ex member opine here, the wealth of material here is pretty vast.
I would encourage any ex LC or LYM to offer experiences and insights as it will be usefull in encouraging people to run as fast as possible away from the cult, except Steve Rendon of course.
At one point, some people may feel that they are in some thing which is mysterious and of a behind the scenes cloak and dagger adventure.
If that interests you then forget this lunacy and get a job with one of the intell services and make a career of it. If you like math and science you see an explosion in knowledge every day with inventions and ideas. In the LYM you will be doubling the square with Sky until his teeth fall out thirty years from now in your 15th apt ready to be evicted into your 16th.
There is no basis for a "Soft LC". This was and is a cult of personality for Lyn since day one. I can't tell you names, but there are plenty of ex members who left and do extremely important work in many fields. The one thing their LC experience taught them was to be able to sniff out lunacy and cultish behaviour in a second.
It is like having another sense so to speak.


05-28-2006, 12:29 AM
Sancho and Excelsior,
Thank you so much for your posts. Sad to hear about all the youngsters thinking they change the world by doubling the square... Why not go to school and eventually become taxpayers instead?
Anyway, I wonder about the way members live. Is it commonly so, that members share apartments? When studying the Palme murder investigation, the fact that several EWP:ers shared appartments surfaces. (Thereby they could deliver mutual alibis!) These people were at the time 35-40 years old and definitely no longer poor students. Is this a general pattern for the movement globally? Do activsts work full time for the party, or was/is it possible for them to pursue a career and be activists in evenings and weekends?


05-28-2006, 10:01 AM
Mr. SwedeLW,
The word "activists" can't be used in the same sentence when discussing the org. After leaving the org I worked with various activists on issues of schools, racial relations and other issues. Activists have a definative goal which includes actual legislation and solutions to real problems. You go back and forth over policies in communities and have debate over possible solutions.
The cult has only Lyn as an agenda and will begin and end every sentence with Larouche. Even a rationale beginning to a problem will quickly be nothing but a vehicle for shouting about Larouche. The org paid a few thousand to get their own Dem club, but it will be a Larouche fan club with lip service where needed.
If you talk to the members who were in the beginnings of the org on college campuses you get the impression that it was not so cultish and had a lot of dissenting opnion.
Lyn ended all of that and consolidated everything once 1973 or so began which caused some early members of SDS Labor Committee to leave and denounce Lyn as a meglomaniac of sort.
The general consensus is that Lyn really went wacky when Lyn's next wife Carole dumped him for a 26 year old Englishman named Chris White. The whole insanity began full time with brain washing plots, CIA plots and the org in a continual pace of hysteria, run by Lyn.
Lyn announced that this is no longer a debating society and we need to take world power. Operation Mop began, and Lyn started a youth movement of ghetto kids called RYM or Revolutionary Youth Movement. Rym was supposed to be the muscle to beat our oponents. Instead, the youth usually beat up and stole and in a few cases raped our members.
Most people at that time had some part time job and had room mates or sorts. A big thing we did was to get our people laid off and collect unemployment insurance for the full term. You usually lived in a bad part of town and like a bohemian. A member who had a job usually paid the rent while a parade of members came and went. We also had people skip out on student loans and move around getting utilities in their names and then skipping town.
In NYC members could make good money doing typestting part time and most National office people worked like that. When Lyn began his presidency march we had people quit their jobs and recieve some type of minimal stipend if they made enough money.
Occasionally you had "problem" members with emotional problems or nervous breakdowns. Those people we sent to NYC and they worked in out printing press operation until they were just dumped.
In the 1980's we raised enough money that you could have a lot of people on stipend, but, Lyn needed money more and more as his and Helga's tastes got more refined and expensive.
Members were reduced to 5 bucks a day for a long time and people were skipping out on loans, rents and utilities. We would spend enough money for one week of Lyn and Helga at a Park Ave hotel to pay for a few months of rent for members.
One reason you need members on stipend is too make them more dependent on the org. Almost all of the members in the National office who left in the 1980's had side jobs which meant that they would interact with regular people.
In certain cases we had problem spouses so they would be employed in our computer or typesetting companies. If they were getting better, we could shift them to fundraising or other things. If they were still on the outs, then we could at least use them as low paid help for the businesses.


05-28-2006, 01:41 PM
xlcr4life, you are so full of inside info. It's really awesome talking to somebody who really was there when it all happened!
>Lyn ended all of that and consolidated everything once 1973
>or so began which caused some early members of SDS Labor Committee
>to leave and denounce Lyn as a meglomaniac of sort.
There must have been some kind of coup?? This year, 1973, was the year the LC came to Sweden. Is that a coincidence, or did the coup trigger/make place for an international ambition?
>In certain cases we had problem spouses so they would be employed
>in our computer or typesetting companies. If they were getting better,
>we could shift them to fundraising or other things. If they were still
>on the outs, then we could at least use them as low paid help for the
This computer business, is that Computron? The company still exists, and some of the executives has Greek name that resemble names found i Kings writings in Our Town on the LC:s in the 70's. Is there still a connection between Computron and Lar? Who owns the stock of Computron?
Also, while at it, you mention problem spouses. I gather this alludes to non-member spouses of members. It must also have existed problem children, that is, allready existing non-abortable children. What happened to these children?
Finally, another trace: Why did the LC never come to Finland? Did you try to establish the movement in Finland, or was the country deemed less susceptible to holomorphic neutron Beethoven-economy than Sweden and Denmark?


05-28-2006, 01:42 PM
You have to look at how this whole thing works in total. Lyn is after a cult of psychophants, not activism. The closest we came to when I was in was a bill in support of Fusion power by Cong. Mike McCormack. We would claim to be gathering support for increased funding of fusionn power. What happened was that we figured out that a lot of money could be raised using the FEF front group. So we set up card table shrines at as many airports as possible and told people that money was going for lobbying for nuclear energy. In reality, the money went into one big pot and diverted where needed. Part of the exodus of people at FEF was over shenanigans in money according to some.
Lyn had a famous memo where he basically said that the only reason to have any front group was to put him into power. We raised millions of anti drug work and did the same thing. "Give us money to fight drugs". Their money did go to publish a book called Dope In which featured the protocals of Zion in one edition.
In every case we raise money and did not send out subscruiptions. Lyn would say it was becuase of the ADL. The post office said ot was because we did not pay postage.
In the early 1980's Lyn had the whole Detroit region and other members comprising a hundred or so leave him. It was after this event that the cult of personality was doubled so to speak. After that, one would notice how intense the org hysteria was also doubling.
The lesson in all of this is that you are not dealing with an outfit like the AARP where you sign up, get a newsletter and support or oppose legislation. Everything was, is and will allways be for Lyn.
You job as a member is to do that around the clock and be so busy that you have no time for even thinkiing about what you are doing. If you have a supporter who can't join, then your job is to get as much money as possible.
Your living conditions are designed to minimise the expense of your existance while your job is to maximise income. The LYM are in a game Lyn has played for years and years. The older members are denounced as "Boomers" and as the reason Lyn is not in power. The lym had a few months of being sent around the country and being Lyn;s rent a mob.
Now, the LYM have to make the money to save humanity to replace the last few generations of memebrs who are burnt out and too expensive in upkeep.
Another trick Lyn does is to make the members feel like worthles trash asking for money to eat. Your problems are nothing since Lyn was facing hourly assasination threats and was "a virtual prisoner" according to the memos he would send us.
So besides the threat of nuclear war, the collapse of the economy and the end of civilization as we know it, who the hell are you to ask for your stipend? Now keep in mind that Lyn is writing this in places like his W58th st Penthouse, the Sutton Place townhouse, a castle in Germany or a five star hotel in between.
Lyn and Helga had to click glasses of Rheingau knowing that a bum like Phil would throw members out in the street to send money for Lyn. Even after the "Jew Jokes" were making the rounds, Phil, Debbie, Larry and Harley would take the gold out of members teeth if they could. Phil was well known as a guy who had his regional members call parents about dental problems so they could get some cash.
The final bit of lunacy Mr. SwedeLW is the constant reminder by Lyn to the members that he was in the same league as Jesus Christ facing the imminent death. This basically squared the Socrates death analogies for members.
If you never saw this article, please ask.


05-28-2006, 02:16 PM
Maybe I was too hasty... It seems that Computron went out of business in the 90's? Anyway, my question is still valid. What was the connection between Computron and LaRouche after 1980?


05-28-2006, 04:20 PM
Computron recieved support from Wang I believe. We had people in the org whose spouses worked in Computron doing work. Dennis King has a chapter on the workings in his web site where he reprints his Our Town series from the 1980's.
Go to chapter 12 for the series.
There is a lot of murkiness with Computron and Lyn. We used computers at Computron for org work in setting up intell files on people and cross referencing them with other people and things.
Computron also processed our mailing lists and fundraising lists for elections and in house work that required sorting of info.
The murky part starts over the management of company finances and Lyn of course. Lyn's version is that the org funneled millions into Computron in an attempt to save it.
Some of the people who left when the Detroit region left say that the battle was over how much money Lyn was ordering out of the business for his wacky spending.
In the end, like every entity that the world's greatest economist has his fingers in, it goes belly up.
One thing to note about the King Our Town series is that most members had no idea of what we were doing until they read "Our Town".
There were a lot of inter office personel betwenn Computron and the Fusion Energy Foundation. When similar financial hijinks began in FEF, people there left.
Lyn would denounce the person as evil and then we would have a dossier on how he or she was in cahoots with the ADL or some other enemy.
An FEF star named Eric Lerner had a dispute over a patent and he left to a similar refrain. You can find some of his books on physics and space in book stores.
Computron pretty much dissolved with some people staying with Lyn and most leaving.
When we moved to Leesburg we relocated the printing and typesetting operations.
Out current computer people have a company called Levitt and James in Leesburg which produces legal software and regular contributions to Lyn's campaigns from employees.
The big secret in the late 1990's was a computer firm started by a former member I think who had quite a run during the tech boom. When Lyn mentions "Winstar" he is referring to a company which on paper was supposedly worth hundreds of millions. From the people who were in Leesburg it seems that Lyn had his chops licking for a piece of that, until the Tech boom collapsed and a few big money companies in telecom pulled out.
This all gets wrapped up in his diatribes on "Boomers" in the org who did not produce the money he and Helga are accustomed to.
If anyone out there thinks that this sounds crazy, well, you are right.
The whole Bizarro world has different layers of dead enders waiting to pass away, boomers ready to be dumped, NC's ready to extract every penny from LYMers who have no idea what hit them and a few jabronis in the local office who think they are going somewhere.
(Message edited by xlcr4life on May 28, 2006)


05-28-2006, 04:49 PM
Here is an exerpt from "PublicEye" about Computron.
Corporate Shenanigans
5) According to numerous court records and internal NCLC documents, large sums of money were funneled from Computron Technologies Corporation, a computer software firm owned for many years by NCLC members, into the NCLC coffers. In early 1981, Computron filed for Chapter 11 reorgani*zation under federal bankruptcy laws.
Internal memos of NCLC also in 1981 reflect a bitter struggle between Computron owners and LaRouche. LaRouche claimed Computron's founder had embezzled vast sums from the 1980 LaRouche Presidential cam*paign. In reply, the Computron founder strongly implied that the cash flow had been in the opposite direction, and threatened to spill the beans before a grand jury.
The alleged looting of Computron is under investigation by the Computron Creditors Committee under the jurisdiction of the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York. (In Re World Composition Services, Inc. v. Computron Technolo*gies Corporation) (File no. 81-5121-A / 81 B 10477 JL) The Court records make for fascinating
The era this was occuring was our 1980 New Hampshire campaign. We sent virtually the entire org to New Hampsjire for the primary and everyone bet the ranch on Lyn making a large vote total. In the final analysis, Lyn was pretty much nuts and the voters recognised that.
Lyn did the usual thing and declare that we were robbed by vote fraud. The Computron angle comes in because we were sending a lot of money to New Hampshire. In the middle of this we got invovled with some alleged gangster/scammer from Michigan who promised us that for the right amount of money, he could deliver the vote through various means.
I would hear this along with other people and and hear the oohs and ahhs from members who thought this was a sign that the "Gods of Olympus" were recognising that Larouche is right and adopt our policies!
This came a few months after Lyn tells the members that he will lead a military coup against Jimmy Carter by patriotic Generals and Intell people.
It all turned out to be another scam done against Lyn by people who knew what to say to him and gullible, star struck security people.
We would hear stories back in our local offices that if it wasn't for the sell out of the Greek mafia who did not send money, that lyn would have won the primary.
In retrospect, just writing this crap shows how silly I and other were back then. No wonder I quickly left the bizarro world.
Any talk about Computron quickly died after the Detroit split as Lyn and Will Wertz discovered another way to make money


05-30-2006, 12:46 PM
Actually swede-lar-w, the earliest schism was when a leader named Steve Fraser, who was possibly second in command to LaRouche, along with Tony Papert, Carol White and Ed and Nancy Spannaus formed a new group I remember being called the Socialist Labor Party. He led a split with LaRouche around 1972, with some other interesting people like Paul Milkman and Bob Dillon (not Bob Dylan). The basic tenet of his movement was that with the proper technocratic program you could create the basis for a revolutionary movement (that's when we were still calling ourselves revolutionary socialists). Lyn argued (in those days he would actually have to defend his positions) that the true basis for revolution was the class-for-itself as opposed to the class-in-itself. Roughly speaking he espouse that the working class would have to take the lead of other sections of society (like welfare moms for instance, and for a while farm workers), and abandon ordinary trade union concerns.
This was probably the last major split where there were actual alleged doctrinal issues until the infamous Fred Newmans CFC(something like Center for Change) joined for a time and then split to form another group which later took over the Independent Party in NY through their candidate Lolana Fulani have been a factor in NY elections including ironically with the Bloomberg Administration (Michael Bloomberg is both a billionaire and Jewish so it is hard to see why he might look to the votes of the so-called Independence Party. For more on the ties of the IWP (Int'l Workers Party according to Fred Newman although the LaRouchies liked to refer to them as Intercourse With Pets) see following link.


05-31-2006, 04:46 PM
One of the hardest things for members to understand is how dog gone crazy they appear to normal people. When you are in Bizarro world around the clock, your social functions and ability to interact with people suffers immensely. The LYM, as well as every previous incarnation which Lyn rounds up are usually oblivious to how they come across to people.
There is an endless supply of encounters people have with LYM which make their way into the web. One of the funniest is from the site ditzydemocrats.
We had Lyn mentioned quite a few times in episodes of the Simpsons and Saturday night live. In the 1981 movie spoof "Airplane" the last cultist encountered in the airport terminal says "Help us support Nuclear power" or something like that. That is based on how we at one time had hundreds of clean cut members witrh card table shrines at airports around the country.
This is pretty long and funny, so it will be in several parts.
Thursday, February 16, 2006
Kristen and I Meet a LaRouchie (Part 1 of 2)
...and it doesn't go too well. Cross posted from my DailyKos account, from late January.
Ah, Lyndon LaRouche. For those of you who haven't heard of him, he's an 83 year old, who has no formal qualifications, but has run for President in every election since 1980. He publishes articles, brochures and newsletters on the evils of whatever the current administration happens to be. For the current administration, he's working on a series that he calls "Children of Satan." Ouch. Kristen and I ran into a couple in January and had fun talking to them. Part two, which is obviously forthcoming, details my own encounter with them on my college campus.
`Twas a bright, warm sunny day. After lunch, Kristen and I were wandering down the street, window-shopping. In front of us, one on each side of the street, were card tables with handwritten signs proclaiming, "Impeach Cheney!" We looked at each other. This w as different. I realized quickly though, having run into these people before, that they were the dreaded political species known as LaRouchians. Kristen, however, had not heard of them, and I quickly filled her in on some of the things I both knew and had only vaguely heard of.
One thing that I knew was true was the death of Jeremiah Duggan, who was at a LaRouche Youth Movement meeting in Germany, and ran into a busy road, and was killed. LaRouche spokespeople said that the death was a suicide. Others says although Duggan's death may have been a suicide, the LaRouche Youth Movement was using mind control techniques on the young man to force him to stay in the movement, and he saw no other means of escape.
Other rumors included the statement from a former government teacher: "Stay away from them, they're all crazy," and, also from the aforementioned government teacher, "I read somewhere that they believe in alien landings or something." While a google search for "La R ouche + aliens" turned up...well, frankly, junk and conspiracy theory websites, the truth may still be out there. Or not. It made for good shtick later though, as you will see.
The LaRouchian, an elderly man, who later proclaimed about thirty times that he was a farmer from South Dakota, approached us. He asked us, "What do you think of Samuel Alito?" I wasn't really interested, and started to blow the guy off, (Starbucks was calling me, what can I say?) but Kristen quickly drew me into a game of "ask hard questions then ask harder ones, while pretending to be confused."


05-31-2006, 04:48 PM
An important question, and a very important issue in today's society is gay marriage. So, Kristen asked the LaRouchian where LaRouche stood on gay marriage.

The man's eyes bugged out. He stepped away from us and burst out in an angry rage, "That's BULL!" We blinked. We stepped away. We were planning on backing away slowly. No sudden movements. The man went into a tirade about how "gay marriage is NOT an issue. It isn't. That's the problem, you people are focusing on these issues and they're not issues. The issues are not important."

Thus enlightened, Kristen persisted. "So, does he think gay people should be allowed to marry?"

The man narrowed his eyes, and I quickly changed the topic. "Well, I heard that some guy got killed while at one of your youth movements."

The man blustered, "No. That's absolutely unfounded. Where did you hear that?"
"The Washington Post. It was a while ago, but they did this big thing about it."
"Well, um," he floundered, then rebounded, "that liberal rag," as he called another elderly man over, also a LaRouchian. "Bob, what's this about some kid getting killed?"
"Um," the other elderly LaRouchian pondered. "Oh yes! An operative of Cheney and his administration killed him because the right wing hates us. See," he proceeded to go into some nonsense about how Cheney is the son of Satan.

I yawned. Kristen yawned, and was handed a pamphlet, entitled, "Son of Satan IV." "That would make a great horror movie title," I commented. The South Dakotan farmer ignored me, and spoke only to Kristen, encouraging her to read it.

Kristen said, "Oh, look! Hitler! Are you saying that Cheney is the reincarnation of Hitler?"
"They tried that with Tim Kaine, " I answered for the LaRouchian, "It didn't work."
The LaRouchian ignored me, explaining that Cheney was worse that Hitler and then started talking about the Holocaust.

Kristen interrupted him. "Excuse me, but I don't care because Hitler is dead. He's no longer affecting me. Why do I care?"

A woman waiting to cross the street at the corner we were at giggled before walking rather quickly across the street.

"Well, you should care!" the LaRouchian said indignantly. "That's the problem with youth today. You have to be involved."

"But I am involved. The two of us ran a political activism club, and volunteered for several Democrats running for office."

"Yeah, and they all won too, unlike this LaRouche guy," I muttered. The LaRouchian did not hear me, I think.

"Anyways, you still haven't told me where he stands on anything, and you still haven't told me why I should vote for him for President. Convince me. Go ahead." Kristen grinned.

"Well, first off, LaRouche is not running for President. He is eighty-three years old and can't do that anymore. But he is still an activist and is running this PAC. He's more like a man in his 60s"

Kristen replied, "Yeah, so's my grandmother but I wouldn't vote for that lady. Tell me where he stands on foreign policy."

"That's a good question," the LaRouchian replied. "You see, I was out there before 9/11 at Georgetown University, the week before it happened, warning people. We were the only ones who saw it coming. We were warning people that operatives of Cheney would do that! We need to get out and convince people and get to the youth working on the Hill."


05-31-2006, 04:49 PM
"So...Dick Cheney blew up the Pentagon," I said skeptically.

"NOO!" he replied vehemently. "I'm not saying it was Dick Cheney himself, but it was his operatives. Anyways, LaRouche is very progressive. In fact, he's a Roosevelt."

"A Roosevelt?" I asked. (Please note that I've lived in the DC area my entire life. I know the Roosevelt family history pretty well) "Which side- Teddy's or F.D.R's? Because, that was two different sides of the family, they even pronounced their last---"

The farmer burst into my enlightening and scholarly comment on the Roosevelt family. "FDR, of COURSE!!"

"Well, no need to get so sniffy," I thought and started to say, "Well, you know, this is the DC area. How do you know I don't work on the Hill?" but Kristen stopped me.

To make a long story short, we ran out of amusing things to ask. The two men asked for names and email addresses so that we could join them. Kristen and I looked at each other, and promptly gave fake names and email addresses. They then asked for money. We said we were in college and poor. They asked if we had spare change. We told them we had no money whatsoever and walked off with barely constrained amusement.

Mulling the incident over at Starbucks, we came up with some questions that we should have asked. I put them here for your amusement:

"What happens when LaRouche dies?"(answered in part two!)

"Am I being punk'd?? No, seriously, where's the camera?"

" Where does he stand on the War on Christmas?"(answered in part two!)

If LaRouche supported it; we would have rejoined with, "Why do you hate the Jews so??"

"Will he legalize marijuana?"

"FDR married a distant cousin of his. You may know her as "Eleanor Roosevelt." Now, did LaRouche marry a distant cousin of his? Where does he stand on cousin-marriage?" (answered in part two!)

"Why should I have given you a dollar? What do you use the money for? I mean, your signs are handwritten. What's up with that?" We would then give them a suspicious look and say, "Are you buying marijuana?"

"I've heard you all believe in aliens. My question to you all is, if an alien abducts you and you receive some kind of medical care or probing or whatever, would LaRouche let you bill that to Medicare? Is that insured?"

and the one thing that would have ended this debacle much earlier.

  • In response to the original question of "What do you think of Samuel Alito?" .... "I'm very proud of my uncle Samuel, as is the rest of the family."

    Our conclusion, you ask for?
    Obviously, that Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert would have handled the situation with far more wit, humor and grace. Also, they would have filmed it and made some money off it.

    more to come

05-31-2006, 04:54 PM
Alas, the fun that is Melissa + Kristen + LaRouche volunteer is just too freakin' long to be put into only two entries. I tried to edit it down, but I couldn't just cut out the hilarity. Ok, the semi-hilarity. Long story short, I'm putting it up in two entries, both posted today, but in managable chunks instead of a novel. Chapters, if you will.
The moment you've all been waiting for- LaRouche Part Deux! Please keep in mind that a LaRouchian came to my Microeconomics 306 class two days before this incident, stirred up some arguments that didn't make much sense and then never appeared again. I met him again… during episode 2. (He's not the one I talked to though. Just to clarify).
Guy #1 stopped me, asking me if I had heard of LaRouche. Ooh. Wrong thing to ask me. I replied in the affirmative and then explained how I had met a South Dakotan farmer- without going into the crazy, "Gay marriage is bull and you are a tool of capitalist s ociety!" bits. I then asked Guy #1 a rather rational question, in my humble opinion. "What," I asked, "happens when LaRouche dies? I mean, he's really old. Will you disband?"
Guy #1 laughed and said, "Oh, that depends on how strong we are. If our youth movement is strong enough, we will prevail after he dies and carry on his message."
Me: "So, you're disbanding."
He starting flinging economic buzzwords that don't mean anything at me, and I deflected them with a simple, "I'm an Econ major." I'm not, but I do have 12 credits of econ under my belt as my electives in my management major. Woo.
I then explained how awful the South Dakotan farmer was to me, and Guy #1 sighed, saying "He's one of our old, senile ones. You know, that could have been prevented. LaRouche is 83, and he's really sharp because he challenges his mind everyday."
Me: "As in, `You can prevent senility by doing a puzzle or something daily.'"
Guy #1: "Well, not a crossword puzzle but by challenging your mind."
Me: "You can change your genetics by challenging your mind."
Guy #1 (huffily) : "Alzheimer's isn't the same as senility."
Me: "I never said that. However, we do know that senility cannot always be prevented by thinking a lot."


05-31-2006, 04:57 PM
Guy #1 moved on with some nonsense about FDR and how JFK was killed by operatives of the neo-conservative movement. The Neo-cons, he also wanted me to know, are really Nazis in disguise. Just F.Y.I. I saw my opportunity to ask another question. "The South Dakotan farmer said that LaRouche was related to FDR."
Guy #1: "He has the same ideologies."
Me: "That's so totally not what I asked you."
Guy #1 : "Oh, you mean, are they related?"
Me: "Yeah."
Guy #1: "No, they're not."
Me: "The <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> lied to me!"
Guy #1: "What do you mean?"
Me: "The farmer- he said they were cousins! And I wanted to ask if LaRouche married a distant cousin of his because that's what Franklin did too."
Guy #1: "WHAT ?"
Me: "Oh, you didn't know that?"
Guy #1: "Well, the guy that told you that was completely senile then."
Me: "You know, I find it hard to take you seriously when you are not only giving me vastly different information than he did and then you belittle him. It's really unprofessional."
Guy #1: "What did he tell you?"
Me: "He said that gay marriage is bull."
Guy #1: "Well, what he meant was that the problem is that you can't focus on the issues like that. You have to look at the big picture- gay marriage is not important."
Me: "Why do you hate civil rights so?"
Guy #1: "Why are you so fixated on gay marriage?"
Me: `I am fixated because people are being denied their civil rights because they're gay and you can't move on to the entire picture when you've got a government that is denying the small issues. Why? Would it bother you if I were a lesbian?" (Which, for the record, I am not.)
Guy #1 moved on to inform me that the dollar is going to collap se within the year, and the US cannot support itself and we're all DOOMED. For the edification of the world, I include a link to an economics editorial from the Post here. I know it's good and sound, not only because we all know that I'm a freakin' rock star genius, but because my super Macroeconomics 311 professor discussed it in class and said that it was a very clear, forthright and easy to understand explanation of the issue. So there, LaRouche! Yeah, what?
Part Trés is coming. We make some startling conclusions about Satanism, Judaism, evolution and

The Ditzy Democrats have successfully demonstrated what "The Larouche organising method" really is.
This stuff would make a hilarous play for a theater group.
Still more to come.


05-31-2006, 05:01 PM
suppose that reading Part One also would be a pre-requisite. I'll pretend that everyone actually did read it though and go straight into the dramatic conclusion of The LaRouche Files. *Insert overly dramatic, soap-opera-esque music here*
I asked who LaRouche would be likely to support for President and Guy #1 got a bit miffed and then finally sputtered, "Well, see, that's not really the point here- but he'd support Hilary. You know, the Clintons called in LaRouche to help Kerry's campaign...LaRouche ran their campaign basically, he turned it around and if he had been there from the beginning, Kerry would have won."
Other gems: We somehow started talking about science and evolution. I promise these are all true quotes from Guy #1.
"You have to believe in God to be a real, serious scientist."
"Evolution is probably not true at all."
"All teachers in today's universities, but especially science teachers are fascists be cause they teach in a Newtonian fashion- we can't study effects and say that they're causes and just memorize facts." (Ironically, most of MY professors in the 3 long years I've been in college were Socratic methoders.)
"I don't think you're taking me seriously." (Really? My, my, the boy did have a brain cell!)
I told Guy #1 at this point that if LaRouche wasn't being supported, he should try another field. I pointed to "Children of Satan IV" as an example of how LaRouche would rock as a fiction writer or as a horror film director. Guy #1 didn't find this funny. "Do you know what Satanism even is?" he asked angrily. "Cheney is a Satanist. Hitler was a Satanist."
Ah. Thanks, bro. That's helpful. Now, Kristen was not there, because she goes to a different university than I do. I had to be the Jew in the situation in her absence, therefore, and because I am, according to Kristen, second-hand Jew anyways, I told Guy #1 that I found him offensive to my inherent Jew-ness .
I got tired of talking to Guy #1 and started lying to him 100% of the time, pretending to be a Republican right wing nut job (think Ann Coulter, but more so) who was really spying on him. I don't remember exactly what I said, something about health care not being that important and that if he was so into evolution, he shouldn't either because the fittest would survive. The poor guy's eyes bulged. "Are you lying to me?" he asked.
"No," I lied. "Why would I do that?" (Because it's fun...)
"If you're a Jew, you should care! I mean, that's how Hitler took over, you know! You sound like Cheney!"
"I would like to be a dictator. I think I'd do a damn fine job."
Silence from Guy #1. I continued. "In fact, I think I will. I mean, all this about economics, I know my theory well enough--"
I was interrupted. "Theory doesn't work in the real world!"
I lost it and laughed at him for a full minute straight. We argued in that sort of me pretending to be a Republ ican and saying outrageous things that no one could possibly believe ("Sure, let humanity rot!").


05-31-2006, 05:10 PM
This stuff is priceless from the ditzydemocrats.
You have to understand that what Lyn often does is reshape events to fit the desired conspiracy of the month. One common one liner you often hear Lyn do on low budget AM radio stations and kook web sites is this line:
Announcer: How did you get out of prison?
Lyn: Bush got me in and Clinton got me out.
Never mind that several states during the Reagan years were busy fielding complaints from people who lost hundreds of thousand of dollars in Larouche promisorry notes (We promise to pay you, oops, we are sorry we can't pay you).
I'm still chuckling over how Clinton asked Lyn to run the Kerry campaign.
anyways, back to the ditzydemocrats.

  • Other things I learned: The LaRouchian that came to my Econ class? His whole job with the LaRouche movement was to go to econ and government classes at universities, stir up arguments and then talk to people after class to get them to join the LaRouche movement. The next day, for example, I walked into Econ 306, and on every single desk was a LaRouche brochure. It looked like the professor had distributed them, but of course, he hadn't. A guy in the class stacked them up on a table in the room- we wouldn't just toss them, but we made it obvious when el professor waltzed in that they were left there. The professor's reaction: "That's really dishonest." It was. A lot of people walking in were asking, "Oh, do you want us to read these?"
    The ending is rather boring actually, because I just left him standing there. Actually, I saw a friend of mine and ran off with him, leavin g the LaRouchian yelling at my back that I "can't run from the truth!" I wasn't running from the truth, I was running from the anti-truth.
    However, let us draw some conclusions. The LaRouchians are unorganized. They obviously hate each other. They are dishonest. They are slimy. They are poorly trained/brainwashed. They don't like free trade. They like to lie. They can't keep their stories straight. Extrapolating from this, they have no respect for the very people that they are trying to recruit, if they sneak into classes, and drop information on people in a back handed way that makes it look like it was distributed by the professor or by the university. This is dirty, dirty politics and it is the kind of thing that creates people like my and Kristen's new friend, Willis, who hates canvassing, politics and people. And, according to Willis, lots of people hate him. And that's sad.
    To paraphrase Stephen Colbert, so sayeth Melissa.
    posted by Melissa at 1:46 PM

    In a related story: I recieved a call from my sister in San Francisco a month or two ago because she had just talked to a Larouchian. I made her go back, get her $5 she gave to the guy to shut up and rip out the piece of paper the guy had written her email address down on. She now knows to stay the hell away from those people.
    By Sean Holihan, at 9:45 AM
    Melissa, you pretended to be a Jew! The Jewish community probably hates you, but I don't. I know you did it because I wasn't there. Awesome.
    To Sean Holihan: uber-excellant advise that you gave to your sister.
    By Kristen, at 4:22 PM

05-31-2006, 08:48 PM
Scary to think I used to sound like that, I suppose. On the other hand, I never really fell for much of the conspiracy crap so tried to stick to issues - issues which I did not know well, so the net effect was the same. And those millennarian hand-made signs used to give me the creeps, too. But I ignored every instinct towards good sense I had because I so wanted to get all my answers and my certitude from just one source.


06-01-2006, 09:40 AM
Glad to see you folks postin' here again. I return to my previous question:
Finally, another trace: Why did the LC never come to Finland? Did you try to establish the movement in Finland, or was the country deemed less susceptible to holomorphic neutron Beethoven-economy than Sweden and Denmark?


06-01-2006, 03:21 PM
XLCR - that is hilarious! I hope I am that together if I run into a card table shrine.


06-01-2006, 04:32 PM
I was too low level to get into policy discussions about why and where the ICLC planted itself. My impression is that they set up locals wherever they had one or two fanatical supporters. No strategy at all. Perhaps the Finns are thus saner than the Americans, Germans, and Swedes.


06-01-2006, 06:38 PM
well, ditzy democrats is about right, i'd say...
ongoing wars in iraq and afghanistan, with another one threatening in iran, and these imbeciles have gay marriage on the top of their christmas wish list?...i'm no larouchie, but i don't know what would be worse: being locked up in a room with larouchies, or with ditzy democrats...and, for what it's worth, larouche may be a " conspiracy theorist ", but does anyone here actually believe the official account of what happened on 9/11?...i don't agree with larouche's take - he says it was an attempted coup - but at least he's understood all along that segments of the u.s. government had a role in the attacks...and it is true that
soon after bush took office larouche warned of a
reichstag fire type event...give credit where credit is due...i can well understand the cynicism of former members...but not all of larouche's " popularity " can be attributed to
mind control or brainwashing...the man and the organization have always had some interesting things to say, and have even taken courageous and unpopular stands on issues - i've been following them for over 20 years and i know what i'm talking about...and it's total crap to link them with the ufo crowd...if only they'd get my EIR to me on time...and dispense with larouche's essays...


06-01-2006, 07:58 PM
(1) a stopped clock tells the time correctly twice a day;
(2) the SWP, Pee Wee Herman, and a root canal are each more "popular" than LaRouche; I was there: if you stand at a card-table shrine long enough you become so inured to your own uselessness and insignificance that you begin to imagine anyone who walks by with a pulse is a perfervid LaRouche supporter.


06-02-2006, 07:57 AM
sancho, the stopped clock remark is exactly the kind of thing i was referring to when i asked that credit be given where credit is due...larouche was talking about a reichstag fire type event occurring before 9/11 took place...and though, after the fact, a close reading of the PNAC documents makes such a speculation plausible, i can't think of anyone who was saying it before 9/11...with the notable exception of alex jones,another so-called " conspiracy theorist "...have any democratic notables yet come out and said that elements of this administration were behind 9/11?...outside of cynthia mckinney, another one who's dismissed as a kook...or, to take a more recent example, look at hillary clinton's proposals to save the auto industry - issued months after larouche was addressing the same thing...a stopped clock may be right twice a day, but would you use it to tell time?...larouche is, and has been for many years, ahead of the curve on many ssues...that's why i've paid attention to the organization...i don't have to think too hard to mention instances where's he been way off - like the perpetually impending doom of the apocalyptic financial crash that he's been trumpeting for as long as i can remember...i've learned enough about the organization through reading the postings on this site to look at members with a sympathy that their frequent nastiness would not seem to deserve...but the refusal to give a tip of the hat to larouche when he happens to be right about something, is exactly the kind of mind set that made me sympathetic to, and interested in larouche in the first place, and defeats your own purpose...


06-02-2006, 10:29 AM
The ability of the organization to mine existing data in order to arrive at their 'predictions' is known. There are companies that do it for a living. There is at least one company doing it on contract for parts of the government, as well as other businesses. They do a better job attracting and retaining analysts with the needed skill sets and they aren't worrying about spin or elections.
I personally think LHL got lucky. This government has demonstrated its incompetence more than once. I have a difficult time imagining that it ever had the ability to pull off 9/11.


06-02-2006, 01:59 PM
The issue is not whether LaRouche is a Cassandra - the issue is that he operates a criminal enterprise wrapped in a cult of personality about himself. Hitler, too, was "right" about many things: so what? I always feel embarassed for Lyn when at the age of eighty-three he still must go on about being "right" - what would impress me is if, before he dies, he ever develops the humility to admit he was wrong about even one thing, especially the way he manipulated and otherwise maltreated people loyal to him, like me.


06-02-2006, 02:05 PM
The issue is not whether LaRouche is a Cassandra - the issue is that he operates a criminal enterprise wrapped in a cult of personality about himself. Hitler, too, was "right" about many things: so what? I always feel embarassed for Lyn when at the age of eighty-three he still must go on about being "right" - what would impress me is if, before he dies, he ever develops the humility to admit he was wrong about even one thing, especially the way he manipulated and otherwise maltreated people loyal to him, like me.


06-02-2006, 03:14 PM
Mr. SwedeLW, we only go where we can find recruits or money. Many times, we would meet somebody at an airport card table shrine who was realted or freindly with some big wig in another country. The business card would go to the National office for follow up and money calls.
You start with selling and EIR sub and then see what makes the person tick and figure out how the org can make an inroad out of that.
What ever is in the news would also set the direction. For example, during the Malivanas war in the early 1980's, we used that to contact any Argentinian group with our anti British writings.
Using cold calls to Embassies , companies and anything connected to Argentina, we will eventually meet some ex or former somebody who is now an angry nobody and will work with us.
If the persson is usable to us, then we usually ran them through the Schiiler Institute and attempted to be as sane as possible and send them to conferneces with their expenses paid.
If all worked well, then more doors could be opened up as the plan continues.
What usually happend was this.
Lyn would start to go batty with some contact the intell staff was working with and the person would politely be too busy to talk to us.
We would throw out his or her name so much that by the time the next phone call went out, the person was supporting Lyn for ruler of the world. The person would get po'd and that was that.
If the person had some money, we would pester them non stop til they told us to F off.
If the person was on our expense account, we would usually and predictably fall behind in money and the person would leave for greener pastures.
In some cases we met pretty rich kids of some big wigs and tried to get as much as possible from them. One story was in South East Asia where we tried to get the family to bankroll Lyn in their country. This happened when Lyn was talking tough to the members who were on their way to being convicted for fraud. As lyn is telling us how he is like Christ before the Crucifiction and will accept death, he was having other people trying to see if he could bolt to a country in Asia without an extradition treaty with the US.
Keep in mind that we would have hundreds of people around the globe calling many places and people and would get information which was ahead of the curve. One item we pretty much knew from calling up many investment houses was that parts of Third World debt was unserviceable due to many currency and internal problems of curruption , waste and mis management and outright theft. We could take that info, get rid of the reasons and have Lyn proclaim that the soution for Argentina was to use "The Debt Bomb" and cancel its debt payments.
This is nothing new as we did the same thing in the 1970's by urging cities in fiscal crisis to also stop payment on their debt to collapse the Rockefellers. In the 1980's, we just took out the rockefellers and replaced them with the British. When the IMF or World Bank would try to reign in corruption, spending, nepotism and bad economics, we came in and placed the blame on the IMF and the World Bank.


06-02-2006, 03:16 PM
It is an easy solution to a complex problem which means we can campiagn on it. The formula always stays the same.
If you were in the org you got a rush over seeing Time magazine have "the Debt Bomb" on its cover. To members who never watched news, read magazines or financial newsletters, Lyn was brilliant.
Norway must have never had a contact who took us seriously. We never wrote about Australia til we met up with some similar nuts like us and we were able to get a political party, members and a lot of money out of the place.
Who was a big deal in getting third world debt cancelled. Well the Pope, where Lyn will take credit and Bono of U2. The org recognises Bono as a rock and roll Satanist for the members.
When you are in and then out, you can figure out a lot of how we did things. When you have thirty + years of knowledge of Lyn and the org the card parlor tricks are easy to pick up. But so for a fresh faced college drop out who wants to save the world, as many of us were.


06-02-2006, 04:15 PM
JoeSixPack brings up some things which need to be explained in hostorical context. Take Lyn and the auto industry.
In the 1970's we had the same thing in our papers as today. Detroit made cars that were gas guzzlers which fewer and fewer people wanted to buy. The reliability of US cars were also an issue and AMC, which I doubt very few people know of, went bankrupt and Chrysler was sitting with an edless supply of cars which no one wanted to buy.
In the middle of this we decided to take over the workers franchise from the traditional CP, RU and SWP cells in factories. We called Leonard Woodcock every name we could think off and connected him to the Rockefellers and the CIA. Our grand conspiracy was that the Rockefellers with CIA help were running drugs into auto plants to make UAW workers work faster and faster. That was called "Speed up" and you would see wild cat strikes in Ohio plants that made Chevys.
Since the UAW wanted nothing to do with us, they had their goons attack us in factory parking lots. In that era we would routinely depoly outside plant gates during shift changes and try to sell our paper "New Solidarity". Though we could sucker punch CP members, UAW goons were another story and we would be arrested and beaten up. The UAW also sued us for calling our paper New Solidarity when their paper was called "Solidarity".
Where this is all leading to was that when US companies began to lay off auto workers, the problem was not that the quality was bad, the cars sucked gas and the technology was obsolete, but a part of the new pwrld wide conspiracy to deinductrialise the US and have methadone fueled drug addicts working factories and mines.
We then write that something called "The Humprey-Hawkins training Bill" was nothing more than a plot by the Rockefellers to relocate US workers for slave wages to Colorado.
This is not a made up story. I gave out those flyers, sold those campaigners at many a plant gate.
Now Lyn enters the field as a Presidential Candidate and the solution is to turn assembly plants into nuclear plant assembly lines and build high tech stuff like jets and trains. Maglevs were not around yet and people still supported nuclear plants.
We had a bill we wrote ourselves and called it something or other and had that as our plank in the campaign in auto towns.
If you read any car review magazines and financial analyst's reviews of US auto makers , then you would know the problems they have long term. The UAW is a Democratic supporter and of course Hillary and others will want their support.
The org has a way of selectively finding a problem and then writing that only "The Larouche Proposal for so and so" will work. The members have a new initiative to do and people to call and raise money from. A few UAW locals around the country will sign some statement until they wise up.


06-02-2006, 04:18 PM
I read an article by a LYM in 21st Century , when it last appeared in public about Magelevs. We will always take the fanatical approach since we are not in the real world and have budgets to meet and impact studies to do. Shiela Jones, who now raises memebrs kids in Leesburg for future card table shrine positions, would run for mayor of Chicago on the platform of tearing up the Chicago MTA and installing Maglevs. Never mind how silly this sounds, it sounds good to us.
Now this article I am reading had cheap looking diagramd of Maglevs criss crossing the country. The author is one step from seeling used cars instead of maglevs, "Just a low interst credit from the Third National Bank and you too can have your very own Maglev" . Any facts or discussion of land costs, Building costs? Right of way easements? Environmental issues? Revenue studies? The whole thing was to be financed by using maglevs for freight shipping when passengers were not using the train. This was something suitable for a middle school essay class.
Next, Richie Freeman now tells you that the railway industry collapsed. Never mind that record tonnage is being hauled by carriers and several billions in capital improvements are underway or that Locomotive makers have orders for hundreds of new, fuel efficient engines from growing carriers.
JoeSixPack, your making the same error I made in the early 1980's. I thought that with our land purchases in Leesburg and our contacts in the Reagan administration that we would become a large think tank in DC and would stop the Larouche lunacy and expand to new areas. Instead, Lyn made it clear after the Detroit region left that unless a project revolves around him, it does not exist.
The org has been nothing more than a cult of personality and everything is geared that way. This is no different than any other outfit based on a personality like a Rev Moon or some hillbilly preacher about the Apocolypse.
As for 9/11, the story changes depending on who is being talked to. Here is one version for a certain audience:
I was around in the 1970's. In that era we had hostages taken by Iran and Jimmy Carter was the president. Our money making job was selling paper gun targets of Khomenhi at intersections and bumper stickers about Kennedy, Jimmy Carter and Jane Fonda.
We had plenty of things printed about the Muslim Brotherhood and terror networks. We also printed stuff about how many Muslim groups have their racial hatred of Jews via old Nazis .
You do not see that today. I have not found any more of this on the Larouche web sites. Lyn is a featured guest on Iranian media about how the Jews manipulateed 9/11. You do not see anything written about Islamic Fascism, human rights abuses by Arabs or any other problems in the MId East, except the murderous Nazi Israelis.
The org has had people tour the Sudan and write nice things about certain countries. Lyn and Helga were featured lecturers at the Zayed Institute. Look that up and see what goes on there.


06-02-2006, 04:18 PM
Jeremiah Duggan saw first hand how the org he saw in person was different than what he thought he was supporting.
Much of this happened after the Prince Diana death where Steinberg made some contacts with Muslims through the family of Jodi. You can believe we will not mess that bank roll up.
A lot of this is because the org will bend for a dime or support for Lyn. In Europe, the audience does not mind the description of Israelis as Nazis. We denounced Ramsey Clark during our Muslim Brotherhood campaigns and now he is Lyn's lawyer!
We were ahead of the curve in a few places because the media would be far behind in catching up to news of the intracacies we were investigated.
The problem is that no matter what we were invlovled in or figured out, Lyn would have to take credit, be the author or have us go so crazy that it became a joke.
This is a crazy world of many things going on. How do you think I felt knowing that we spent many years attacking Paul Volker for high interest rates , and then a few years later, we are having supporters lend us millions of dollars and promising them sky high interest rates to cash out their stocks and empty their bank accounts to buy our promisorry notes?
There are people who were in the org who really dug into the depths of the org's way of doing things and found so many examples of how Lyn cribbed things from certain sources as his own.
Every group we studied gave us something new to incorporate into our world. You may not find Larouche and UFo, but, look up our theories and writings about Babylon and ancient history and you will have something even Tom Cruise would find amusing.
Many a time I find this stuff like Filipino bare handed stomach surgeons you used to see on TV. It looks like something is happening until you understand it.


06-06-2006, 02:34 PM
Logging on for the first time. It all started several hours ago when I googled the name of an ex-member and found this discussion. I don't know whether to laugh or cry! For the record, I'm also an ex, member from the early 70s through the mid-80s. Those who were in at the same time will not have any trouble figuring out who I am.
Skimming (very quickly!) the posts in the LYM and LaRouche sections, it's sad to see how little has changed. Good work xlcr4life and all the others in helping to keep the reality principle alive for those who have been drawn into the lhl trap during this most recent LYM organizing drive.
One question and a couple of comments. Excuse my ignorance, but what does "yute" stand for? I gather from the context it means the most recent generation of recruits, but is it just an LC thing or is it generally used in the US? (don't live there no more, so I'm not up on current jargon)
About Computron. The whole issue of the "entities" in the late-70s, early-80s is very important, I think, for understanding lhl's concept of primitive accumulation. In essence, by the late 70s, it had become clear to him that the street organization could not finance the empire (personal and political) that he and Helga (in particular) wanted to build. I can remember sitting in on discussions with lhl, Gus, Andy (head of Computron) and others in which it was stated that the entities, and in particular Computron and Worldcomp would become vehicles for raising money for the org. For those of us in the national office, this was also couched in terms of getting members off the street and giving them more human working hours/conditions, but I doubt if this was actually one of the driving considerations. PMR (printing company) was not really considered part of this because their profit margins, given material and labor costs, were too low to be sucked dry. This was part of the move to "depoliticize" the LC, make it a think-tank with inside contacts and channels of power. In this hierarchy, Gus was no. 2 man, with Andy at Computron and with considerable power for Kenny Dalto in Detroit (remember the Detroit conference?). Except for select, "inside" NC members, the bulk of national office and existing NEC were outside this. The entities were to become the means for channeling money to these outside operations, and the clients of the LC companies were to become a clean way of funneling funds from "friendly" political supporters. Something went wrong. There was a falling out with Detroit/Gus and Lyn "decided" to move Will Wertz into NY to clean up the situation. My suspicion is that Helga put her foot down because the Computron/Gus crew could not stomach Helga and she knew that if they won out, her hayride was over. At that point Computron folded and Worldcomp came back under the control of Nancy Spannaus and Ken Kronberg (who had been pushed out by Andy and replaced by Ron K. -- Ron left around the Detroit split, if not actually as part of the split itself, can't remember the dates). Thus started the brutalization of the national office, the explicit goal being to equalize conditions between the field and national office, but on the lowest possible level.
So much to say ... but there's time.


06-06-2006, 04:10 PM
Welcome c256. those in the org will understand what that means.
"Yute" is something that hit me one night as the movie "My Cousin Vinnie" was on as I was viewing the old LYM web site "The Academy2004". In the movie, Joe Pesci as the lawyer calls the youths he is defending "yutes" in his NJ accent to the judge who is Fred Gwynne. The judge looks at Vinny the lawyer and asks "What is a yute?"
The reason for many yutes to wish to do noble and virtuous deeds is something many of us understand. I really can't get angry at yutes, only at the handfull of long time NC's who pretend that Lyn is sane, Helga is a genius and LC history is to be either rewritten or forgotten.
The deadenders I refer to are the remaining long term members who are growing elderly and have nothing and no where to go.
You confirm my views of that era when we were moving to Leesburg and thought that we would be a think tank in DC and become more entrenched in the real world.
C256, do you remember the memos Lyn issued about "outside" projects and the org only exists to promote him?
Were you still around when Lyn wrote about his life and compared himself to Christ in Gethesmene?


06-06-2006, 10:25 PM
Glossary needed...
xlcr4life: Thanks for definition of deadenders. Now, what is boomer? Is it a babyboomer, that is, a person born around 1945?
c256: Welcome! I'm not an ex, but I watch this horrible movement from a Swedish horizon. From a Swedish point of view, the movement attracts attention owing to - among many things - its hate campaign against former prime minister Olof Palme, and the following Palme murder. I see that you as well as others posting here are ex to the US branch, but do you know anything on the forming of the Swedish branch in 1973? What was the trigger for going abroad?


06-06-2006, 10:31 PM
Yes, I do remember Lyn's memos on "outside" projects and the purpose of the org. I don't think I was still in when he wrote his Christ documents ... but maybe I was just blocking. The whole "Christian"/agape turn was one of those things I tried not to take too much note of. As one of the members with bona fide Christian credentials, I always got a kick out of seeing members who were not brought up Christian (Jewish or atheist) try to "master" LHL's brand of theology.
For our Swedish inquirer here. About why there was no move into Finland. It should be remembered that the various European locals were set up on the basis of LEFT-WING political networks. In 71 or 72 Lyn sent his first foray into Europe to recruit out of the left. Muriel Mirak and Webster Tarpley were part of this (in Italy), as was Uwe Henke (von Papart) who had come into the LC orbit while teaching at Swarthmore. There was also the French connection, again through Swarthmore, with Jean-Claude Barré. The nucleus of the German org coalesced around a group of ex-Maoist medical students. Yes, Helga was a Maoist (the journalist part comes from the fact that she was sent as a "journalist" to Mao's China by some left-wing group in Germany during the late 60s). The Scandinavian organization, on the other hand, was a direct outgrowth of the American draft-dodger movement through TNS (The Next Step) of which Cliff Gaudy (sp?) and Bill Jones were members. The two of them, along with Cliff's wife, Kirsten, set up the Stockholm local. The reason no one went to Finland was because there were no draft dodgers there.
About the Swedish org, I never heard anything about drug use there, but I do remember hearing vague rumors about strange things in Denmark, but no one talked about it openly, so who knows what that was all about. It might have just been someone getting sane and deciding to leave.
One question for you all. Apart from her fixation on Schiller, does anyone remember Helga exhibiting ANY knowledge or feeling for art and music? She knew nothing about music, was never involved in any of the music group discussions and I can't remember her ever talking about art. Am I wrong or is the same also true about the math/science debates? I'm not talking about the renaissance geometrical proofs and Cusa which she tried to explain, but rather the heavy-duty Gauss and Riemann-type discussions. As we all know, Lyn just sucked up what others developed on these various topics and then spit it out again as his own -- but I don't even remember Helga trying to do this. Probably too busy overseeing her castle.


06-07-2006, 01:51 AM
Helga had eyes on Lyn from the early 1970's in Germany. She wore a blue beret and flirted with Lyn, who kept his girls back in the states while spending time in Germany.
Helga's main talent was pointing to a poster of the movie Kin Kong with the ape holding the girl in her Munich flat. Helga would tell her friends that Lyn was her ape and she was the girl and Lyn would be hers.
Helga was considered a dunce by the NEC members and only around because she was Lyn's main squeeze. Helga singing was an example of why you never see German love songs on the charts and David Hasselhoff is a huge star in Germany. The language is one for ordering and not sweet talk.
Helga attempted singing Briano style and had Kathy Wolfe give her private lessons in Leesburg. The best lesson was when Kathy suggested that they take their tops off and sing topless to really allow deep breathing.
Helga had a parlor of women who hung out with her and basically spent time to go shopping with her. She had access to a lot of org cash we gave her through security black hole spending.
It may be the case that each assasination attempt we reported in the briefing to raise more money coincided with a sale at Macy's or Saks. The girls got to leave the office and Helga treated them to lunch, on other people'e money of course.
The girls had to refine Helga a bit as she would smoke a pipe like Lyn and hundreds of LCers who wanted to be cool, LC style. She was pretty masculine and drank beer until Lyn discovered Rheingau.
The worst experience for a security guy was driving Helga around town , listening to her attempt to be intellectual while smoking a pipe and speaking German to her close German body guard frauleins.
Actually, let me correct that. After all of that, Helga would often be in the back seat of the Bonnevilles and rip one of her legendary beer farts and pretend nothing happened. Poor Zeke was the only one who could take it with a smile.
C256, do you remember when after Lyn and Helga were married, there was a slug in the briefing about making the day between their marriage and Xmas a world holiday since they were going to save humanity?
I may still have the Lyn (Christ) in the Garden speech some where to post here when I find it.


06-07-2006, 02:25 AM
I recall Der Helga weeping at the close of her little talks on Schiller when she would get round to Truth and Beauty, and always found the welling up of those tears sickeningly anti-intellectual ... until I just learned that her flatulence was more than a metaphor.


06-07-2006, 03:05 AM
xlcr - thanks for your thoughtful posts...i was unaware of lyn's further development of his 9/11
theory...though, as i had said, i didn't believe his first explanation...i simply gave him credit for an early rejection of the official story...with regards to your history of lyn and the auto industry, thanks, but i fail to see the relevance to what i pointed out - namely that hillary clinton had called for a summit to save the auto industry, months after larouche had made a similar proposal...i could give further recent examples of information originating with the organization later being picked up by the mainstream press - one that springs immediately to mind is the linkage of the neo-con agenda to strauss and trotsky - that was picked up on by sy say, xlcr, that i am making the same sort of mistake you made - but what mistake is that?...i have made it very clear in previous posts that larouche is not my guru, my avatar...i have only asked that credit be given where credit was due, and pointed out that larouche is often ahead of the curve on the issues...even dennis king gave larouche credit: ( reporting on a larouche appearance before farmers ) " a transcript of his extemporaneous answers during a lengthy question and answer period, reveals that he had thoughtful positions on a wide range of farm issues which he expressed in colorful witty language. " ...we are faced with a situation in this country where the two main parties are virtually indistinguishable...the democratic party platform in 2004, stripped of its rhetoric, was a virtual echo of the so-called bush is more important than ever before to recognize, and campaign for, intelligent proposals wherever they may originate, since it is evident that no real change is going to come from the top of either party...and finally: " We were ahead of the curve in a few places because the media would be far behind in catching up to news of the intracacies we were (sic)investigated. "...ok!...explain it away if you choose, that was, and is, my point...and thanks xlcr - i hope you realize that i am no opponent of you, and the other ex members who post here...


06-07-2006, 08:32 AM
Joe, no cult ever is 100% hogwash - there is always some measure of (often iconoclastic) truth which catches someone's attention. As I have written above, much of what the organization represents as its cultural and scientific platform is good and wholesome and would do nothing but benefit humanity, not to mention the intelligence coups for which you correctly point out the organization should be given credit. BUT to ignore the context in which these policies and insights are articulated, the context of a criminal cult of personality, is truly irresponsible. Would you like your son or daughter to squander their youth on LaRouche? That is the only reason I post here: to help well-meaning people, especially young people, to AVOID LAROUCHE LIKE THE F***ING PLAGUE. Unless, of course, one is a masochist.


06-07-2006, 01:30 PM
JoeSixPack, the org at one time had hundreds of pretty bright people doing research, making phone calls, going to libraries and producing volumes of work. The only work which will be going anywhere is if it involves Lyn 100% in the analysis. On many occasions, a member of the org will produce a paper on something which Lyn will read. On many occasions, a single notion of the paper which can be lifted will be then linked to what ever is the new vector at the moment. The member then sees hundreds of hours of work now being taken credit for by Lyn and he or she is still broke, still driven like a slave and seeing their work plagiarised.
It happened many a time and was a contributing factor in many peoiple leaving. Some of the ideas were worth a lot of money as there were patents to be garnered and royalties to be earned. Most of the FEF went as Lyn wanted every dime for himself and would have placed the tax exemot status of the FEF in legal jeapordy. Lyn has no concerns over you going to jail, just as long as he does not go. Several very high members left and went on to protect their work and ideas and have become very well off from leaving. You usually can tell because Lyn would issue a memo about how the person was either:
-an agent
-a recently turned ADL asset.
-a Kissinger agent
-emotionally insane
or these days, a "Boomer". This is a reference to baby boomer aged members who are older, broke and started to think about why they spent 30 years in poverty and lunacy.
I know many of these people from the National Office who did the research and picked up clues of info which turned out to be pretty important. These people all dropped out because they would see their work bowlderised by Lyn into some convaluted conspiracy which always had an assasination plot as the punch line.
meetings with high ranking current leaders and insiders went down the drain as Lyn would fly off the handle about how only he could save humanity and only he knows the truth.
Lyn would be at a confernece where we had military people there and he would announce that the Soviets have sent tanks across to invade Germany.
We would have anti drug meetings where contacts who were interested in money laundering info would leave in agony for us wasting their time when Lyn would go off on how all of the money ends up with the Queen of England.
Discussions about health care and medicine would end up with Lyn screaming about gays and Henry Kissinger as a pederast.
A meeting with VIPS about SDI and particle Beam weapons ends up with Lyn shouting about how people who used to talk to us are all KGB agents and Mondale is a KGB agent while the KGB and Kisssinger are blackmailing everyone.


06-07-2006, 01:33 PM
JoeSixPack, the org at one time had hundreds of pretty bright people doing research, making phone calls, going to libraries and producing volumes of work. The only work which will be going anywhere is if it involves Lyn 100% in the analysis. On many occasions, a member of the org will produce a paper on something which Lyn will read. On many occasions, a single notion of the paper which can be lifted will be then linked to what ever is the new vector at the moment. The member then sees hundreds of hours of work now being taken credit for by Lyn and he or she is still broke, still driven like a slave and seeing their work plagiarised.
It happened many a time and was a contributing factor in many peoiple leaving. Some of the ideas were worth a lot of money as there were patents to be garnered and royalties to be earned. Most of the FEF went as Lyn wanted every dime for himself and would have placed the tax exemot status of the FEF in legal jeapordy. Lyn has no concerns over you going to jail, just as long as he does not go. Several very high members left and went on to protect their work and ideas and have become very well off from leaving. You usually can tell because Lyn would issue a memo about how the person was either:
-an agent
-a recently turned ADL asset.
-a Kissinger agent
-emotionally insane
or these days, a "Boomer". This is a reference to baby boomer aged members who are older, broke and started to think about why they spent 30 years in poverty and lunacy.
I know many of these people from the National Office who did the research and picked up clues of info which turned out to be pretty important. These people all dropped out because they would see their work bowlderised by Lyn into some convaluted conspiracy which always had an assasination plot as the punch line.
meetings with high ranking current leaders and insiders went down the drain as Lyn would fly off the handle about how only he could save humanity and only he knows the truth.
Lyn would be at a confernece where we had military people there and he would announce that the Soviets have sent tanks across to invade Germany.
We would have anti drug meetings where contacts who were interested in money laundering info would leave in agony for us wasting their time when Lyn would go off on how all of the money ends up with the Queen of England.
Discussions about health care and medicine would end up with Lyn screaming about gays and Henry Kissinger as a pederast.
A meeting with VIPS about SDI and particle Beam weapons ends up with Lyn shouting about how people who used to talk to us are all KGB agents and Mondale is a KGB agent while the KGB and Kisssinger are blackmailing everyone.


06-07-2006, 03:14 PM
This stuff goes on and on and on. The net result is that many of the people who do the ground work and find out these things have left and are now influential writers, investors and bankers, think tank big wigs and researchers, inventors and recognised leaders in their field.
The mistake I talk about is a subtle one I myself have done many years ago wondering if it is possible for the org to evolve into something else of a better nature. When I saw the tens of millions going into real estate purchases in Northern Virginia and the plans to have our real estate costs paid for by people renting ofices from us, I was impressed. Every sign to us was that we were now going big time and would surpass think tanks and be a big part of politics.
A funny thing happened along the way, Lyn got involved and made sure that the money was fishy, the land was not paid for on time and his ego had to be fed more tham member's stomachs.
Outside of the org, our people have done wonders, inside, they were just trash.
If you are around long enough, you will see how we put things together and then self destructed.
I referenced AIDS before. In the 1970's when we were attacking the Rockefellers, we had a simple geometric growth of disease and said that Rocky's policies would cause mass death in the third world.
AIDS comes along and we make it our issue and now are campaigning against gays and start to predict that the whole world will die of AIDS. What was an infectious problem which has many vectors of spreading via blood borne paths is now a plan by the British to eliminate people to fulfill Prince Phillips plan called Global 2000 from the World Wild Life Fund or some other outfit. We had so many spins on this that I can't even begin to put this together. We have candidates running for offices and now AIDS is a SOVIET plot as well.
One day I looked at our paper and saw that we took the diagrams from the Rockefeller's disease of death and printed that Lyn was the only person to predict AIDS and mass death!.
The point is that no matter what intitial insight you see the org do, the cult of personality will always trump that and turn it into another crazy conspiracy which will be replaced with a new conpiracy.


06-07-2006, 03:16 PM
In the 1980's we were campaigning in different states and started to run into farmers. Farmers had their own view of the world and we figured out how to make our world fit into their world. For car dealers and home builders we would make high interest rates our calling card. Farmers had to deal with low prices and increased costs. When we began to raise money from farmers we went hog wild on "parity pricing" for farm products. Lyn started to wear a cowboy hat at meetings and now became an expert on farming. Farmers were angry, we gave them something to be angry about as now international financiers with Jewish names were now the farmer's enemy.
Farming in many states had subsidised water which was running low. Our solution was another huge project to divert rain and melting snow to the US, regardless of what Canadians or any state had to say about it. We weren't serious about farming, we were calling farm lists for money to fund the TV spots. The genius of our org was that we could figure out an angle to call almost anyone about how we knew was screwing them and how we would make life better for them.
We dicover trends and then figure out how to boil the lists of people whom we will call with Lyn as the messiah for them. You name the strata and we know the pitch.
If you want to see how great we are in farming, check out Lyn's Vice Pres. candidate in one election named Billy Davis. Davis lost his family as he signed over his money to us and his families future inheritence. We took some of the big money we raised with the promissory notes and bought a huge acrege for Lyn and Helga to live on. The story I heard was that Davis's money, the note money and some other investor's money when into this spread. Davis was supposed to be the farmer who raised cattle and crops on the property as a business. Along the way to this nirvana we diverted money from paying mortgages and lost the property. Davis began to panic as he now had not a dime. The last story I heard was that Davis is in his 70's and has to work at a local Home Depot to live as he has no ties to the org for many years.
Everything he worked his life for is gone.
I would venture to say that Lyn's greatest feat is inventing "The conspiracy of the higher conpiracy" and taking regular kooky quirks of different people and squaring it a few times.
I do understand what you mean. I joined the org because it was the biggest supporter of fusion power at the time. The org rejected a drug induced life style which was common in my era.
I thought that there was quite a bit of good to support, despite the quirks of some people. I overlooked the rumours of mop up, RYM , the Chris White brainwash plots and the whole January 1974 era. I saw what I wanted to see and kept on hoping for the better for years.
I can look back now and say I was an idiot for ignoring the obvious. People are funny in this stuff. We look at something one person says is junk and see some thing working. When you are a yute, you have not the experience to sometimes make those crucial decisions. So we learn by our mistakes and many of us share that here.
Most cults and sects are like this and have many common traits with each other. There was no internet when I joined and doing research about the org was next to impossible. My life is pretty good and I hope that the materials which I and others provide here can help some yutes make good choices in life.


06-08-2006, 07:07 AM
friends sancho and xlcr - thank you for your replies...i hope you will forgive me for this digression, but i want to speak of another scam artist today...i have an ad on a personals site...recently i was contacted by a woman from russia, who claims to have great feelings for me, on the basis of what i have said in my profile...she has sent photos - she is quite attractive...i wrote one serious letter to her, speaking of my lifelong interest in things russian...her next letter did not respond to a single thing i said, simply mouthing pieties about the importance of TRUST...i am quite sure this is a scam...and here is the relevance to this site...remembering lyn's obsessive regurgitation of homilies to the work of another russian, vernadsky, i have decided to simply copy and paste larouche's essays - with some adjustments - into my letters to is a sample of my first letter...i do hope that you will find it amusing:
marina, yesterday i wrote you about my love of russian culture and right after i sent you the e-mail, i realized that i had neglected to tell you about a very important mentor of mine, the late russian physicist, v.i. vernadsky...are you familiar with his work?...for reasons i shall emphasize here, the figure of vernadsky should serve as a key unifying figure, for the contribution of the science of russia and ukraine to the unified development of eurasia as a whole...this program of eurasian development, is to be regarded as the central feature of a global economic developmental perspective for both the americas and africa...
look, marina, at this first from the standpoint of the continuing issue of so-called " geopolitics " and then locate the marvelous implications of the vernadsky legacy for both science and economy, not only for eurasia, but for mankind as a whole! darling, you are the first russian woman i have met - even though we have yet to meet, of course - and somehow i feel that you are destined to foster in me a greater understanding of the work of this important and innovative your letter you speak of
love, and of trust, and yes, these are most important to me in a relationship...but of equal importance is the sharing of ideas between two inquisitive minds...this is why i speak to you of the work of vernadsky...i want to tell you that the development of the basic economic infrastructure of the territories of central and north asia, including the tundra regions, is indispensable for the success of long-term global economic development...and to grasp what that development implies for practice, we must look at the required development of basic economic infrastructure through the eyes of the great biogeochemist, v.i.vernadsky!
i am pleased to think that i have finally found a use for lyn's writing - besides the obvious ones that members with puppies will appreciate


06-08-2006, 10:34 AM
Priceless! Those words will definitely send her into the noosphere! (Nonlinearly, of course.) Thanks for the laugh, Joe. Don't forget to fill her in on your nested manifold.


06-09-2006, 01:39 AM
That is funny Joesixpack! I have to rememeber that the next time I see a Nigerian Email in my email box. I can take one of Lyn's speeches about how the economy is going to collapse any second now and I how I am eager to do business before all his money is worthless.
That reminded me of something where Lyn's writings are used in a similar way. There is some bad blood between the org and David Icke. Icke runs his own operation of conspiracy and reptilians who run the world. He sells a lot of his books to the conspiracy set and has more people show up to his speaking engagements than Lyn does.
The bad blood started because he was accused of taking EIR and other publication articles and use them in his writings. A person who is on his web site is a former FBI LA office exec named Ted Gunnerson. He also runs his own conspiracy business.
In addition, there was another guy in South Africa who copy pasted used briefings from Steinberg and his EIR sub to put out his own newsletter briefing which he then sold for thousands of dollars per year. I never saw an issue, but this was from a person who was very familiar with financial newsletters and smelled something funny in a solicitation he recieved.
Gunnerson was a regular contact of ours in LA. Ted Andromidas was our security chief for the LA local and thought he was going to be part of the big boys in Leesburg. Now he scrubs pots and pans in the LA office for LYM group meals and gets yelled at by Phil for being a low income fundraising boomer.
Ted showed up in the ditzydemocrats blog a few months ago. His brother Dean at least married a german girl and got closer to the center of power instead of the center of a mood swinging Phil .


06-11-2006, 06:31 AM
forgive a final post about marina - she has not answered this one...
marina, my faraway princess!...i am so happy to receive another beautifully crafted letter from you!!...and thank you for the pictures!!!...they help me pretend you are here in my apartment...i speak to you aloud..." marina, why aren't the dishes done?!", i say in my sexiest voice ...i have bought a small album where i can put all of your pictures in one place, so at night, before i go to sleep, i can look at them and dream...i have also purchased a black magic marker, and in big letters on the front of the album i have written " marina - queen of the con artists!!!!" gives me much pleasure to do these things...i am surprised and sorry that you have not heard of vernadsky - but should we get better acquainted marina, i will tell you much more about him...permit me to dream just a bit, my distant tormentor...
i am imagining a future where both of us are together...there is a blackboard and there is chalk...and on that blackboard i have written the words " biosphere " " noosphere " " mail fraud "...i can imagine you sitting in an uncomfortable chair, listening in rapt attention to my words: " Vernadsky characterized the noosphere as a new stage of development of the earth, in which man has emerged as the increasingly dominant geological force." is only then that i realize that you are not taking notes!!! first, i am puzzled, but then i realize that there is no need for you to take notes, for you have done the required reading!!!! that moment, my eyes will moisten, my pulse will quicken, and i will walk over to you slowly...i will take a deep breath, and lift your face up to mine...i will look into your eyes for just a moment...and just before i tenderly kiss you, i will whisper into your ear " you have detention "...oh how happy i would be for such a moment!!!...but this is just dreaming - for now...


06-11-2006, 10:14 AM
Hey guys. I"m wondering why Larouche was so obsessed with classical music. It's annoying because whenever I want to relax and play the piano, Laroucche's crap gets inside my head. I wish I never joined that group. I'm slowly getting my creativity back but it still is a slow process.


06-12-2006, 02:23 AM
I ask myself that very same question when I was in the org. When I got out, I realize LHL is just a sour, old quack who is prejustice againest a certain generation. And I'm still wondering. Maybe some of the older ex-members here would know.
Mr. Smythe


06-12-2006, 07:09 AM
yes, we do need some input from xlcr or sancho on this question...but i don't think that larouche is just prejudiced against a certain generation...larouche weighs in against not only, say, the beatles, but wagner as well...and fact, one of the things that really opened my eyes to what the organization really stood for, was the realization, through reading and conversations with members, that larouche believes that some cultures are superior to others...and, extrapolating from that, that some cultures do not deserve respect, or even the right to exist...but reading your posts, jmp and smythe, put me in mind of something i read somewhere about choral singing, which the org is quite big on...something to do with the fact that, in choral singing, members submerge their individual voices to blend in with the group, all following the direction of a leader...and therefore, choral singing, whatever its artistic merits, is an ideal mechanism of control and reinforcement...
and xlcr, you wondered where you had read of larouche's comparing himself to christ at gethsemane...and it occurred to me that you could find such a reference in just about any larouche speech dealing with martin luther king...mike billington even makes reference to it in his book...


06-13-2006, 12:43 AM
If Central European music from Bach through Brahms (excluding the Liszt-Wagner tendency) has the power the ICLC claims, then I ask myself: whatever happened to these nitwits like Phil Rubenstein et al.? Further, the countries saturated with this music, the countries which indeed largely gave birth to this music, are precisely the countries in the last century that murdered millions of human beings for no other reason than that the latter were deemed nonhuman. Somehow, I think there is a higher per capita rate of genocidalists among Beethoven fans than among Aerosmith or Ned Rorem fans.


06-13-2006, 12:59 AM
If you ever listen to LHL's speeches or read his writings carefully. You will find out he always try to a make point how bad he thinks the baby boomer generation are. For instance, in one webcast a couple of yrs ago, a person asked LHL about rock music. Lyn did usual rap, after he was done Deb Freeman added that "The only wrong with rock music is it was devoloped by baby boomers." LHL's hatred goes so deep, that even the Center for Consumer Freedom, an organization that promotes consumer freedom posted an article on celebrity animal activists giving money to political organizations.
At the last paragraph, it mention Ed Asner, a PETA activist donating money to LHL, and Lyn's idea on boomers. Here's the link: . When I was a lym member, the youth leaders always make a point to mention people of my generation has no future cause our boomer parents are selfish, ignorant, etc. I remember at the weekly meetings, Harley Schlanger shows not only how much he hates being Jewish, but also mentions how much he hates being a boomer. This is the same Harley Schlanger who's LHL western states spokesperson. Sancho, xlcr, and other ex-members will probably say the same thing I'm telling you.
One thing still puzzles me is you mention LHL supported the conservatives back in the 80's. I do believe what you said. But the puzzling part is when LHL was running for president in '84, why was he running as an FDR Democrat. And FDR's policies is contrary to a typical conservative idology. Is it just a rouse by the org or it's just half truth? Also you mention LHL denied ever calling the Queen of England a drug dealer on a live TV show. I want to know what show was this? I would really appreciate if you answer my questions.
James St John Smythe


06-13-2006, 01:54 AM
We have a lot to go over which will take a few days. The music question is important because it is antoher example of where a new member sees a a noble trend of behaviour while not figuring out what is happening to them. I will explain later.
JSJ, we never were conservatives and never espoused any conservative values, programs, just larouche values. We rode the trends when we started to work with shady people like Mitch Werbell and found that we could make a ton of money by exploiting the CFR / Trilat haters on the right.
We published books about how we were "Conservative Democrats" to let us fundraise from both parties. Lyn also wrote a book about how the Fonder of National Review, Bill Buckley was a communist and every right wing group was KHB, except us. There is absoluteley nothing there except Lyn's parlor tricks and our gullibility.
The FDR swing statred when we tapped into some former Democratic local leaders who were now either washed up or forgotten. Our plan was something called the "National Democratic Policy Committee"m or NDPC.
We had a former Manhatten Boro President named Hulan Jack who we met with during this era. We also called up many convicted Dems and Labor leaders during the "ABSCAM/BRILAB" FBI investigations. The deal was that we did not care about bribery or graft or crime, but we could convince a few people that this was a Kissinger, Rockefeller/British/KGB, take your pick conspiracy against people who were a threat to the KGB/Third Rome/Environmenatal/ what ever conspiracy to destroy the human race.

People like Hulan Jack and others were treated with kid gloves and not exposed to the lunacy. We paid them a few bucks and ised their names to open doors for Lyn.
The NDPC was formed and FDR was used to make us look like real Dems when we entered local Dem clubs and elections.
In reality, if you look at what we did at the time, our main job was screwing Dem Presidential hoplefulls via slander and inuendo about them all being KGB run. We did many a dirty trick for Reagan's people.
Today, the Dem party see Lyn raise several millions and does not let the LYM be part of the party except in a few local cases. The kooks on the Dems use the org works, which then makes them look crazy and discredits them.
Part of the recent strategy was for Lyn to support Kerry and to create an illusion of being Dems and not a cult.
The LYM spent several thousand to form a club in LA according to FEC records. AT the recent Mass, Dem convention, the LArouche Democrats were not allowed in and spent a few days in the rain singinf for spare change to attendees.
We have done many a dirty trick for people for money and our own benefit.
It is all an illusion.
Lyn would deny that he ever called the Queen of England a drug dealer in interviews. He would say that he is being slandered by the KGB/Drug Lobby etc.
We would hear him rail away about the Queen all of the time at conferences.
Because of his meltdowns, the press would usually bait him until he went mad with the cameras running. It was a running joke in New Hapmpshire. Our job with current LA boomer Ted Andormidas was to keep LYN OFF interviews. We would tell him that he faced an assasination threat if he showed up because the oligarchs were seing how dangerous he was in exposing the Queen!
The best melt down was the old "Morton DOwney" show on Channel 9 in the mid 1980's. Lyn was reduced to a cowering fool who folded himself up into an egg as Downey had a few guests who used Lyn's own words about the Holocaust and Queen against him.
You do every thing for Lyn, not what you think you are supporting.


06-13-2006, 02:47 PM
When I joined in the mid 80's the org was presenting themselves as "democratic republicans". Lyn wasn't using FDR by name so much at the time. A key to understanding the evolution of the group is to understand that the people being recruited post 1980 were not the same types as those who began the org or were being recruited in the early days. I think that I'm a good example. As opposed to Xlcr, Borisbad, Sancho and other early joiners, I had no "left credentials" at all. Though educated, I was poorly read and had no political experience to speak of. Those joining at the time were more similar to myself than those who would one day be called the boomers. Discussions of Larouche's swing from left to right had no substance at all for us. We joined a personality cult and intellectual rigor was not the order of the day. At airports, when asked to sum up Larouche's politics, I , with a straight face would tell people that Larouche was for everything that was good and against everything that was bad. I remember hearing about the Morton Downey incident right after it happened. The leader of our local described it as a "high level operation" to discredit Larouche. I was impressed. "High level operation" by the way was used to explain everything from our family members desperate calls to the fact that no one would ever show up at our meetings. To the dim generation of which I was a part, this was sufficient.


06-14-2006, 04:58 AM
jsjs - i am well aware of larouche's writings and speeches attacking the "baby boomers"...your posting referred to a question concerning larouche and classical music...i merely pointed out that larouche attacks many forms of music, - even " classical music "...


06-14-2006, 07:09 AM
I think the reason that LaRouche really hates the boomers is that we knew him way back when he was a so-called marxist-knew when he perpetrated crap like Operation MopUp, the Revolutionary Youth Movement (which the Weathermen also had their own RYM), etc.) and can see how this quack continually shifted views for expediency sake like a Stalinist in the 30s and 40s, one minute supporting an alliance Hitler and then without missing a beat calling for a war against Hitler).
I think a good reading on how LaRouche really felt about FDR (which I think at one point he denounced as a liberal-fascist) was the Case Against Walter Lippman, a critique on the American Century. You can tell the book is old because Lyn still wore his bow tie and big Coke bottle glasses in the photo). This was in the days he was running the so-called US Labor Party. Then we became conservative Dems, which was meant to describe those who voted for Reagan, economically liberal but socially conservative. That's why LaRouche would talk about things like developing the Third World while attacking the Rock-and-roll culture, marijuana legalization, etc.
ON one score I do agree and that is I still would maintain that classical music, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, represented a far more humanistic and progressive role in music than the Wagnerian Lizst tendency. However, while I listen to classical and opera, etc. I would still listen to blues, rock, folk, etc.
The point about choral music is interesting. When joesixpack mentioned it, I thought back to the films of Reni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will and Nazi youth movement propaganda films with happy Aryan children singing German volk music.


06-14-2006, 01:30 PM
The classical music issue is not really that difficult to explain. First you have to understand that LHL grew up a misfit nerd. Now he has a thing with "boomers", but when we boomers were the LYM of the day (late 60s and 70s) he would rant and rail against his generation of the 1950s. He hated the whole suburban scene, 1950s America ... remember he chose the radical left (trotskyists, not CP) during the McCarthy period, not an easy place to be. Besides the fact he actually likes classical music (and purportedly plays the piano, although eventhough he picked out a Mozart sonata for us to work on together we never actually rehearsed anything), his pushing classical music was an attack on the drug counter-culture of the 1960s left which our generation of recruits came out of.
As for the choral singing as fascist regimentation theory, I think that's going too far. The choral work was a way of giving everyone access to the possibility of making music, personally. In the 70s there was at first also a push for people to go back to the instruments they might have studied as children, or even to start from scratch. I know that some people had very negative experiences with the music work (probably not unlike the torture I felt everytime I was forced to attend a math course or Fusion Energy Foundation event), but in my experience, touring around the locals for the music work, the weekly choral rehearsals and later lessons with Briano were about the only moment when people could get out of the office or off the street and just relax. That in itself was a positive thing. And, often, the people who did best in the music were the "blocked" ones in organizing, and the organization honchos were so uptight they couldn't get a note out. It was often a wonderful levelling process.
I have been amused to follow LHL's attempts to suck up to black contacts with the spirituals in recent years. Anyone else remember Peter Wyer and the rascist roots of jazz and the attack on spirituals and slave music? Ironic, to say the least.


06-14-2006, 04:55 PM
We have a lot to cover here.
There area few things I can mention about music which are my own thoughts. I was not a musician and found the org's emphasis on classical music to be in step with what I thought an intellectual group of people should be doing.
The org was started in the soicial milleu of the 1960's counterculture. The org stood out from other campus groups because of our emphasis on "culture not counterculture" as one of our intitial pamphlets was titled. We attracted students who thought of themselves as intelectualls rather than people ready to trash ROTC offices.
This was the Campaigner which had the first or second batch of yutes dropping out of college. Most of the writers here have left decades ago in angry resignation letters.
However, like anything else Lyn is involved in, it has his own agenda and lunacy which supercedes the original good idea.
What one learns after leaving a group is that in many ways, the experience is much like any other cult which has its own identity, but operates to time tested formulas. The musical work in the org is designed to do a few things.
One, we have to recruit people so we need an angle to appeal to musicians who ordinarally would not give us the time of day. We snagged several musically talented people who would remian in their private worlds and occasionally join a card table shrine. That would only happen on rare moments. The artistic bunch viewed themselves as above the field hands and were accomadated to a degree which gave them some autonomy. muck like the Fusion Energy Foundation people were allowed to do their thing. As long as the work brought in money and worship of Lyn, it was allowed.
Our tiny world had many squabbles over this as field hands who had talent often felt beaten as they would miss rehearsals becuase of fundraising or some other perpetual emergency. A pianist like Margaret Greenspan would have gone pretty far with training instead of panicing over where to move her piano when the rent was not paid.
We had another pretty good violinist named Seth Taylor who also came in young. He was pretty miserable for a while til we sent him to Europe and he blended in with the European style of org life which basically had us raise the money. Taylor and others were involved in using the Schiller Institute to put on a non crazy face for people we wished to recruit. The conspiracy kookery was toned down and the arts were toned up. For a while it was pretty cool to have an inhouse musical pool of talent who could perform at conferneces.
In the end, the talent was turned into a minstrel show for Lyn and Helga in the big house before potential big money marks.
The second part of opur musical offering is what I think these things end up doing to people. You see, over time, the main function of the cult is to wear down and eliminate your individual identity. What ever you thought was important was no longer important as the whole human race now depended on you for survival. This is pretty mush standard procedure for any cult you will find.
Over time, your family, your friends, your job/career, your schooling., your hobbies, your petty fun will be attacked bit by bit. The eventual result is that you are now a "Larouche organiser" and no longer a Margaret or a Seth or a Pavel in recent posts.


06-14-2006, 04:58 PM
Music in the org will be a surreal experience when you review it. We could talk to people at card table shrines about Beethoven, but we had no money or time to actually attend concerts. Every performer was attacked for being either bad or evil as onbly Lyn and his method could unravel the "Hidden meanings "" of classical music. Every piece had to have some world wide conspiracy about its birth. Nom one could write something because it sounded good or could make money for the artists.
Maestro Briano was brought in and for awhile, the local field hands could end their card table shrines early and be in the office for an 8 PM practise of basically singing No no no no no no no no no Bel canto style for an hour. Not enough blood was collected by the local NCs , so the lessons now began at 10Pm in many offices with the phone teams only joining in when quotas were met.
So you could talk about music and raise money off of music, but if you think we spent time listening to music, well, there is more to the story.
Sancho mentioned Phil. The LYM in LA should ask him if he love music so much, why did he have every member who either married him or worked his sweatshop locals sell their precious instruments for Larouche TV fundraising?
Occasionally an NC would see a performance and comment on how too many f**s were in the audience and on the stage. The field hands were often jealous of the musicians who could skip quotas and rehearse. Everything was done to perform at our National conferences, which became pretty scarse.
The laugh then went back to the musicians who had to start raising money and bring the new messiah of music to the cultural elite, thus, C = 256 was born. I have some funny quotes from some music clubs about this later. Another thing we did was actually pretty impressive as we put on a concert at a Lincoln Center Hall with some of our musician contacts.
We had a guy named Carlo Levi Minzi who worked with us for awhile. We put out some records of him playing on a record label we set up called Humanist Records I think. This was an interesting project as we did something which we did with Dope Inc. which was to have our contacts "invest" in these projects with 5,000 dollar promissorry notes. A little side note here. One of Lyn's favorite movies was "The Producers" which featured a Broadway director who sold tons of share to his bad play to old ladies and hoped to declare bankruptcy. In the movie, the accountant quips that you could make more money with a flop than a winner if you raise more money than needed.
Think about that one folks.
After Levi's records we had some more albums and even a CD of Bach Cello Suites by another female cellist who worked with us for a bit. Funny thing is that even thought we sold every single album and CD, the investors were still owed money!
The music. like any other domain of the org serves to make you think that you are doing creative work, but, every thing is geared towards running your life in a certain way. Today's LYM I am told are up early in the office and start their day singing old Slave spirituals.
Things have not changed, just the faces.


06-14-2006, 05:00 PM
Lyn had to deal with some black recruits like Allen Salsibury, Zeke Boyd, Dennis Speed and a few others who were into jazz. Well, that is a problem because that means independent thinking. SAo, it has to go. lyn was relentless with his hatred of any dissenting music unless it served his views. So, everything had to go.
The end result was this Campaigner called "The Racist roots of Jazz. It was written by a Dr. in NYC named Peter Weir. He left a few years after that for good in some dispute. There are many great quotes in that Campaigner which show the extent of hate in the org for different ways of doing things.
It still continues to this day as you can see by this recent briefing by Lyn
MAY 2 , 2006 briefing*
There are two most essential paradigms for this. First,
scientific discovery as typified by the program being employed
under my direction by the LYM. Second, the mastery of the
difference between musical masturbation, such as jazz, and
creative composition and performance as by Classical Florentine
modes of well-tempering as applied to the challenge of such
elementary statements of principle as Bach's Art of the Fugue and
Beethoven's view of this from the vantage-point of the Grosse
Fugue (as I have recently audited the unified efforts of the
Sigersons, Shavins, and Mindy, on this m atter. What a beautiful,
rich challenge that represents! No wonder Beethoven reacted, in
his Grosse Fugue, as he did.).
In contrast to real music, the psycho-sexually impotent, but
super-active fornicator, is like a jazz musician; he takes
exquisite satisfaction from the erotic excitement of perceived
chordal dissonance, but hates the music, in which the ironies are
carefully crafted to force the conception of an actual idea. (To
a musician, bearing a trumpet or guitar into a hall, while
displaying a condom on the relevant organ, the appropriate
salutation is: "Ah, you must be a jazz player on his way to a
hip-hop event.") After all, what is the difference between a
typical "macho" and a rhesus monkey, when considered as to pairs
of each species placed, clinically, side by side in the act of
fornicating? The pair of monkeys and the pair of human companions
are each "getti ng money" without actually "earning" any.
Imagine a Las Vegas or London convention of salesman and
accountants, where the gentlemen in question are attended by
female rhesus monkeys in spangled green or red brassieres and
panties. Above the proceedings, seen the displayed banner: "It Is
All About Getting The Money!" That is real jazz in its truly
frankest expression.


06-14-2006, 05:05 PM
Producing wealth is a function of the same role of
creativity expressed by the geometric doubling of the cube, by
Kepler's discovery of gravitation, and Leibniz's universal
physical principle of the infinitesimal calculus. It is the use
of a creative discovery of principle to transform the processes
of society's behavior in ways which lead toward the increase of
the physical productive powers of labor per capita and per square
kilometer for socie ty as a whole. The spreading of ideas which
satisfy that description into mass circulation through the
face-to-face education of small numbers at a time within what is
cumulatively a large mass of people, is the specification of our
creative work, the only way we have ever actually earned our
income, rather than merely "taking it."

  • No matter what we did, it always had to end up being a worshipping of Lyn and a way to make money for the org. We had a rationale idea of changing the tuning pitch to 256 cycles from 440 cycles. We did this in the 1980's and found some support for that while we hid Lyn for awhile. This was done through the Schiller Institute. Eventually, Lyn's ego got out of control and if he was not the reason for the c=256 campaign, then each person was bombarded with calls and reasons why only Lyn could save the world.
    We did get some famous people such as a ballerina who mentiioned Helga in her autobio and a member of a Mozart string group.

    Next we will look at why someone here calls him or herslef c=256

06-14-2006, 05:08 PM
c256 is not just a name for a poster here. We sent our musicians into the music world and snared a few into our crazy world. The ratioanle stuff comes first, then the lunacy, basic formula.
Here is an article from Opera Fanatic about Larouche and tuning
Samples from Opera Famatic
LaRouche and the Tuning Pitch
In an article in The Washington Post on the LaRouche-sponsored bill to lower the tuning pitch, Joe McLellan wrote, "Zucker has taken a firm lead in opposing the legislation" and went on to quote Opera Fanatic at length, calling OF's articles "an exhaustive study of pitch and LaRouche." ("Lyndon LaRouche's Pitch Battle")
Bernard Holland wrote an article in The New York Times about the tuning pitch, based on the LaRouche position ("Singers Join in a Lament about Rising Pitch"). The Times published Zucker's reply, mentioning this magazine ("Illegal Pitch?"). Zucker contended that "[Holland's] claim that [Verdi] legislated a tuning pitch is pure invention." Zucker also maintained that "during most of Verdi's life, tuning pitches were higher than today's—as high as A 457. The mean tuning pitch was in the neighborhood of A 450, which led the Accademia di Santa Cecilia in Rome to recommend it as the standard."
Zucker published an article on LaRouche and the tuning pitch in the Chelsea Clinton News and The Westsider, mentioning Opera Fanatic. Discussing the involvement of Pavarotti, Sutherland, Fischer-Dieskau, Caballé, Domingo, Horne, Freni, Kraus, Tebaldi, Di Stefano, Nilsson, Bergonzi, Bumbry, Milnes, Ameling, Mitchell, Cossotto, Verrett, Bechi, Bacquier, Cappuccilli, Sayăo, Lorengar, Schreier, Kabaivanska, Cruz-Romo, R. Raimondi, Ludwig, Moll, E. Moser, L. Quilico, Rothenberger, Robbins-Landon, Kubelik, Chailly, Bonynge, Gavazzeni and hundreds of others in the opera world with LaRouche, Zucker contended:
Most of the performers have no idea of the real history of the tuning pitch. They believe that until recently it was a half-tone down. However, 440 cps, in general use since early in this century, is lower than the mean tuning pitches in the 19th century, when the tuning pitch ranged as high as A 457—more than a quarter-step above 440. The performers believe A 432 to be a half-step below 440; in actuality it is less than a third of a half-step below. Tuning pitches in the mid-440s, used by some European orchestras, are not wildly higher than 440—contrary to what some of the performers suppose. A 445, for example, is only about one fifth of a half-step higher. Never in history have more people tuned to the same pitch than today. . . .
The LaRouche bill in no way veils its threat to artistic freedom. According to Article 2 of the bill, state-subsidized organizations must adopt A 432. According to Article 5, "The utilization of instruments of reference"—tuning forks and tone generators—"not conforming to A 432 is punishable by the confiscation of the non-standard object and with a fine for each specimen of $73-$730." The LaRouche literature makes no bones about this, and the petition's celebrity signers are all presumably aware of it. ("Lyndon LaRouche and the Golden Mean")


06-14-2006, 05:09 PM
Francis Church focused on LaRouche and pitch in The Richmond News Leader, quoting Opera Fanatic extensively. He declared:
Zucker doesn't merely raise his voice in protest. He supports his arguments with facts. . . . He feels LaRouche is using the issue to get more credibility and respectability. . ..
Church concluded with Zucker saying, "If LaRouche has his way, pitch police might well tramp down the aisles of La Scala to arrest dissenters tuning to A 440." ("Shall Lyndon LaRouche Call the Tuning Pitch?")
In consequence of Opera Fanatic's criticism of LaRouche's bill regarding the tuning pitch, he and Zucker were interviewed by Lars Hoel on National Public Radio's "Morning Edition." Speaking from jail, LaRouche tried to justify his stand on pitch, which Zucker attacked, as in Issue 3. Hoel observed that Zucker "poked holes in the historical and scientific rationales behind LaRouche's position." During the course of the broadcast, one of the signatories of LaRouche's pitch petition, soprano Phyllis Bryn-Julson, avowed:
There's nothing in the world that I can do to push my voice any louder, through E and F in the bottom of the voice; I will always have that. And when the pitch is slightly higher, it makes that even more difficult. I've sung Beethoven recitals with fortepiano, and things like "Ah, perfido!" are very, very tough on the voice—but when it was put in the proper pitch, I was in heaven! The piece just fit my voice perfectly.
On the same broadcast, Tim Page of Newsday stated:
If the LaRouchians and Stefan Zucker want to fight about it, I think that's fine. But I don't think the music world is up in arms. I remember the first time I ever encountered the LaRouchies: They were outside Alice Tully Hall, and they had some petition to ban Vivaldi from the concert halls. They didn't think he had the "fundamental emotion"— whatever that means. They also recently disrupted a Chicago Symphony performance of "Brangle," a work by Jacob Druckman, and passed out pamphlets saying "Leonard Slatkin Serves Satan" (Slatkin was the conductor there). This is not normal behavior.
Hoel noted, "Music critic Tim Page thinks all this energy haggling over pitch might be put to a better use, such as including more 20th-century music in the standard concert repertoire."
[Because of the program's format, I didn't get a chance to reply. Bryn-Julson apparently doesn't know that when "Ah, perfido!" was composed, in 1796, the tuning pitch was 422-424 cycles per second. LaRouche's bill specifies that tuning pitches varying from 432 by more than 0.5 hertz are illegal. Were the Italian Senate to enact the bill, in accordance with one of its provisions, she would be fined as much as $730 for using a tuning pitch as low as 424. 432 is too high for most music written prior to 1810 and too low for nearly everything later. (See Issue 3, pp. 39-52.) What Page fails to realize is that, on account of his pitch bill, LaRouche is being taken seriously: The Newark Star-Ledger, The New Yorker and the New York Post all more or less supported it on the grounds that since Pavarotti et al. wanted it, it had to be good. For the same reason, the European press has been very favorable to LaRouche. What could make him more credible than having his bill debated in the Italian Senate? On the subject of modern music, should LaRouche come to power he would prohibit the performance of music by Wagner and anyone since.—SZ]


06-14-2006, 05:10 PM
Opera Fanatic's coverage of the LaRouche-celebrity-singer connection occasioned three articles in the New York Post, one by Sharon Churcher ("Stars Favor One LaRouche Pitch") and two by Clare McHugh ("LaRouche Backers Hit Sour Note" and "Lyndon's Latest Pitch"). McHugh reported complaints by non-celebrity signatories of LaRouche's pitch petition that they were being bombarded by the LaRouchites with propaganda and were being hit up for donations.

Sun, 20 Aug 1995 12:45:35 -0500
From: Mitchell Weitz <[log>
Subject: Stefan Zucker Responds!

-- [ From: Mitchell Weitz EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
Today's Arts & Leisure section of the NY Times printed a letter from Stefan
Zucker, taking issue with Bernard Holland's article a few weeks ago about
the most recent Zuckerfest at Hunter College. I thought this would be of
interest to the list not only because of our previous discussions of Zucker
himself and this concert in particular, but also because of the recent
discussions of how singers respond to criticism. In this case, the answer
is "Not very well at all."
"In his essay, 'Hero to the Bad and Truly Awful', Bernard Holland took
revenge on me because of what I published about him in the New York Times
and elsewhere.
"Consider the following chronology: In 1987, Mr. Holland gave me a friendly
review. Then, in 1988, Lyndon LaRouche's Schiller Institute tried to enlist
support for a bill the institute was introducing before the Italian Senate
to lower the tuning pitch. On Jan. 1, 1989, Mr. Holland reiterated
disinformation disseminated by the LaRouche organization. On Feb. 12, 1989,
The Times published a letter from me setting forth the true history of the
tuning pitch and correcting Mr. Holland's errors. I maintained that his
'claim that [Verdi] legislated a tuning pitch is pure invention.' In the
1989 issue of Opera Fanatic magazine I published three articles on the
tuning pitch, stating: 'A score of European newspapers, radio and TV
programs have been reporting on the bill, parroting the Schiller Institute's
claims -- as did Bernard Holland in [The Times].
"I discussed Mr. Holland's views in a number of other articles and on many
radio shows. He has never rebutted what I said or wrote.
"Given this history, Mr. Holland should have disqualified himself from
reviewing me. At the least he should have acknowledged that I had
repeatedly criticized a position he had taken. Instead, he indulged in a
hate-filled diatribe against me.
"At the recent Opera Fanatic's gala he attended, I announced from the stage
that 'I was hoarse from allergies' and cancelled half of what I was
scheduled to sing. (Mr. Holland failed to report the announcement.) I had
never done such a thing or made such an announcement before. I sang for
seven minutes out of a three-hour evening with 10 other singers. Under such
circumstances, would an unprejudiced writer have devoted an entire column to
attacking me?
"My ornamentation in 'Pour mon ame' included a G and four F's above high C,
which Mr. Holland also failed to report. Can he name another tenor who,
even in the best of health, can do as much?"


06-14-2006, 05:13 PM
One might also ask -- Can Zucker name another tenor who would have the nerve
to sing those notes in public, and then the additional nerve to assert that
only bias could possibly account for a bad review?
I once asked you all whether Zucker takes himself seriously, or realizes
that he is a laughingstock. I guess this answers that question once and for
Any reactions?
Mitchell Weitz
[log in to unmask]

Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:58:12 EST
Reply-To: [log in to unmask]
Sender: "OPERA-L: Discussion of opera and related issues"
From: Patrick Giles <[log>
Subject: LaRouche Madness
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Hi everybody,
I posted this to Alan Savada in reply to his post earlier today, and later
thought this might contain information the rest of Opera-l would find...well,
interesting. So here it is, for general delectation...
Thanks for your post. Do you know of the second issue of OPERA FANATIC, that
rag Stefan Zucker published (for three issues only)? There was a long account
in it of La Rouche's first effort to legislate diapasons in Italian
orchestras. I think he and his wife, Helga Zepp LaRouche of the Schiller
Institute (Gelsey Kirkland is or was a big follower of HERS) founded a
political party on the issue and tried to have divas like Tebaldi run on their
ticket. (Once a La Rouche/pitch supporter, Tebaldi, alerted by American fans,
allegedly severed her ties to LaRouche.)
The contention of the Schiller Institute is that the cultural milestones of
the 20th century--modernism, atonality, multiculturalism--are destructive, and
should be abandoned or forsaken. (Kirkland's first autobiography, DANCING ON
MY GRAVE, contains an abbreviated version of this philosophy: she weans
herself from drug abuse by listening to 19th century classical music and
reading lots of old-fashioned literature. She also turns against the
choreography of Balanchine, finding it modernist and impersonal, favoring the
more humanistic dance of Kenneth McMillan. I hope she's happy now.)
I have actually met and spoken to a few La Rouchies on this matter over the
years: some of them advocated removing ULYSSES, Proust, etc. from libraries
("So our children will be protected from them"), lowering diapasons in
orchestras (the theory is the soprano high C when pitched at A=432 matches the
sound the earth makes as it revolves--I'm not kidding, here), and teaching
only The Great Works--canonized 18th-19th century masterpieces. New works
would be "allowed" only if they conformed to the strategies and reiterated the
approved thematics of The Great Works. (I should add that this information was
gotten years ago. Perhaps the La Rouchies have evolved or repudiated some of
these absurd contentions. But I would guess not...)
more to come**


06-14-2006, 05:14 PM
It's also important to keep this in perspective: most cultural arbiters
distort, limit, exclude works of art (great and not) for reasons usually given
as critical or functions of taste but often, really, to subdue the more
troubling elements in these works. Verdi's operas are seldom thought of
nowadays (of performed) as deliberate political incendiary devices; Dickens'
novels' crucial agitprop elements are usually ignored or dismissed today;
librettos by Berg, Weill, etc. performed in languages unknown to the audience
are frequently neutralized in this way. (It will be interesting to watch the
Met audience's response to LULU when, with the new Titles, they will be able
to follow its text line-by-line. Interesting, too, to see if the Met's Titles
will translate all of the German faithfully.) Where the La Rouchies go farther
is in their eagerness to centralize and legislate what should be disseminated
or heard. There are lots of creative people around with self-aggrandizing,
crackpot theories (bell hooks, peter sellars, anyone?)--few of them form
political parties to realize their agendas.
On his radio show several years ago, Stefan played a tape of Piero Cappucilli,
at a La Rouche conference on the issue (very well attended by opera people all
over the world, and respectfully reported upon in the NEW YORK TIMES!),
singing a Verdi aria in what was alleged to be A=440, then singing it again at
A=432 (the pitch La Rouche favors). The first rendition sounded strained;
Stefan (and me, listening at home) however, thought this was NOT sung in 440,
but at a higher pitch. The La Rouche person on the show that night waffled
when asked if the 440 pitch was not in fact false.
Nonetheless, it was amazing how much support this silly issue received from
the opera world. Caballe, Domingo, Pavarotti, and Levine were all quoted
sympathetically on it; some opera stars sent messages of support to the La
Rouchies, or appeared. (Capucilli allegedly appeared in some sort of
promotional video for the Schiller Institute in which he praised the La
Rouches.) The effort failed, but it demonstrates how easily ignorance and
bigotry and politics can take hold in cultures. A nasty demonstration.

For this bit of oddness, thank John Halle.


06-14-2006, 05:17 PM
LaRouche and the Tuning Pitch
In an article in The Washington Post on the LaRouche-sponsored bill
to lower the tuning pitch, Joe McLellan wrote, "Zucker has taken a
firm lead in opposing the legislation" and went on to quote Opera
Fanatic at length, calling OF's articles "an exhaustive study of
pitch and LaRouche." ("Lyndon LaRouche's Pitch Battle")
Bernard Holland wrote an article in The New York Times about the
tuning pitch, based on the LaRouche position ("Singers Join in a
Lament about Rising Pitch"). The Times published Zucker's reply,
mentioning this magazine ("Illegal Pitch?"). Zucker contended that
"[Holland's] claim that [Verdi] legislated a tuning pitch is pure
invention." Zucker also maintained that "during most of Verdi's life,
tuning pitches were higher than today's-as high as A 457. The mean
tuning pitch was in the neighborhood of A 450, which led the
Accademia di Santa Cecilia in Rome to recommend it as the standard."
Zucker published an article on LaRouche and the tuning pitch in the
Chelsea Clinton News and The Westsider, mentioning Opera Fanatic.
Discussing the involvement of Pavarotti, Sutherland, Fischer-Dieskau,
Caballé, Domingo, Horne, Freni, Kraus, Tebaldi, Di Stefano, Nilsson,
Bergonzi, Bumbry, Milnes, Ameling, Mitchell, Cossotto, Verrett,
Bechi, Bacquier, Cappuccilli, Sayăo, Lorengar, Schreier, Kabaivanska,
Cruz-Romo, R. Raimondi, Ludwig, Moll, E. Moser, L. Quilico,
Rothenberger, Robbins-Landon, Kubelik, Chailly, Bonynge, Gavazzeni
and hundreds of others in the opera world with LaRouche, Zucker
"Most of the performers have no idea of the real history of the
tuning pitch. They believe that until recently it was a half-tone
down. However, 440 cps, in general use since early in this century,
is lower than the mean tuning pitches in the 19th century, when the
tuning pitch ranged as high as A 457-more than a quarter-step above
440. The performers believe A 432 to be a half-step below 440; in
actuality it is less than a third of a half-step below. Tuning
pitches in the mid-440s, used by some European orchestras, are not
wildly higher than 440-contrary to what some of the performers
suppose. A 445, for example, is only about one fifth of a half-step
higher. Never in history have more people tuned to the same pitch
than today. . . ."
The LaRouche bill in no way veils its threat to artistic freedom.
According to Article 2 of the bill, state-subsidized organizations
must adopt A 432. According to Article 5, "The utilization of
instruments of reference"-tuning forks and tone generators-"not
conforming to A 432 is punishable by the confiscation of the
non-standard object and with a fine for each specimen of $73-$730."
The LaRouche literature makes no bones about this, and the petition's
celebrity signers are all presumably aware of it. ("Lyndon LaRouche
and the Golden Mean")


06-14-2006, 05:19 PM
Francis Church focused on LaRouche and pitch in The Richmond News
Leader, quoting Opera Fanatic extensively. He declared:
"Zucker doesn't merely raise his voice in protest. He supports his
arguments with facts. . . . He feels LaRouche is using the issue to
get more credibility and respectability. . .. "
Church concluded with Zucker saying, "If LaRouche has his way, pitch
police might well tramp down the aisles of La Scala to arrest
dissenters tuning to A 440." ("Shall Lyndon LaRouche Call the Tuning
In consequence of Opera Fanatic's criticism of LaRouche's bill
regarding the tuning pitch, he and Zucker were interviewed by Lars
Hoel on National Public Radio's "Morning Edition." Speaking from
jail, LaRouche tried to justify his stand on pitch, which Zucker
attacked, as in Issue 3. Hoel observed that Zucker "poked holes in
the historical and scientific rationales behind LaRouche's position."
During the course of the broadcast, one of the signatories of
LaRouche's pitch petition, soprano Phyllis Bryn-Julson, avowed:
There's nothing in the world that I can do to push my voice any
louder, through E and F in the bottom of the voice; I will always
have that. And when the pitch is slightly higher, it makes that even
more difficult. I've sung Beethoven recitals with fortepiano, and
things like "Ah, perfido!" are very, very tough on the voice-but when
it was put in the proper pitch, I was in heaven! The piece just fit
my voice perfectly.
On the same broadcast, Tim Page of Newsday stated:
"If the LaRouchians and Stefan Zucker want to fight about it, I think
that's fine. But I don't think the music world is up in arms. I
remember the first time I ever encountered the LaRouchies: They were
outside Alice Tully Hall, and they had some petition to ban Vivaldi
from the concert halls. They didn't think he had the 'fundamental
emotion'- whatever that means. They also recently disrupted a Chicago
Symphony performance of 'Brangle,'" a work by Jacob Druckman, and
passed out pamphlets saying 'Leonard Slatkin Serves Satan' (Slatkin
was the conductor there). This is not normal behavior."
Hoel noted, "Music critic Tim Page thinks all this energy haggling
over pitch might be put to a better use, such as including more
20th-century music in the standard concert repertoire."


06-14-2006, 05:20 PM
[Because of the program's format, I didn't get a chance to reply.
Bryn-Julson apparently doesn't know that when "Ah, perfido!" was
composed, in 1796, the tuning pitch was 422-424 cycles per second.
LaRouche's bill specifies that tuning pitches varying from 432 by
more than 0.5 hertz are illegal. Were the Italian Senate to enact the
bill, in accordance with one of its provisions, she would be fined as
much as $730 for using a tuning pitch as low as 424. 432 is too high
for most music written prior to 1810 and too low for nearly
everything later. (See Issue 3, pp. 39-52.) What Page fails to
realize is that, on account of his pitch bill, LaRouche is being
taken seriously: The Newark Star-Ledger, The New Yorker and the New
York Post all more or less supported it on the grounds that since
Pavarotti et al. wanted it, it had to be good. For the same reason,
the European press has been very favorable to LaRouche. What could
make him more credible than having his bill debated in the Italian
Senate? On the subject of modern music, should LaRouche come to power
he would prohibit the performance of music by Wagner and anyone
Opera Fanatic's coverage of the LaRouche-celebrity-singer connection
occasioned three articles in the New York Post, one by Sharon
Churcher ("Stars Favor One LaRouche Pitch") and two by Clare McHugh
("LaRouche Backers Hit Sour Note" and "Lyndon's Latest Pitch").
McHugh reported complaints by non-celebrity signatories of LaRouche's
pitch petition that they were being bombarded by the LaRouchites with
propaganda and were being hit up for donations.

The last sentence pretty much sums up what doing Larouche work in any field really is. So no matter what you may think you are doing in math, the sciences, the arts, music, theater etc. All of this is for Lyn's benefit, not yours.
Sorry that this stuff is so long. It does show some universal truths about the cult though.


06-15-2006, 11:11 AM
After reading xlc's informative but long posts on the C256 mystique I came across the following article which I thought was interesting. It shows a lot of the bogus math that Lyn tried to fit into the straits of Greek geometry rather than anything based upon modern physics of acoustics.
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:19:21 -0600
Reply-To: "Lieder, Melodies, Art Songs in any language"
Sender: "Lieder, Melodies, Art Songs in any language"


06-15-2006, 11:12 AM
From: David Smythe <[log>
Subject: Standard pitch and so-called Verdi tuning
Dear fellow Lieder-lovers
Some of the recent discussion about standard musical pitch has been
perplexing, confusing and in places misleading, so I believe some
clarification is required, even at the expense of stirring up some
controversy. I'll leave the question of temperament aside for now. I'll
also try to keep the subject of pitch relevant to singers and singing.
The so-called Verdi Tuning Project (VTP) of the Schiller Institute (SI),
which has been cited several times, is an attempt to redefine standard
pitch, in the belief that it will help singers. I too suffer, for example
when trying to reach an occasional A or even B-flat at double-forte in
Verdi's Requiem as a chorus first tenor, and know that pitch of even just a
semitone lower would ease the pain (probably in the ears of the listeners
as well!). However, a semitone around A above middle C (a', or A4 in the
American notation) is a frequency difference about 25 Hz. So to redefine
the pitch standard from A=440 Hz to 432 Hz, as the VTP is proposing, will
not make any appreciable difference to singers, as this is a lowering of
only about a third of a semitone.
Consider also the variation in vocal apparatus between different singers of
one voice (tenors, say). The linear scales (lengths) of the various parts
clearly vary by at least 5% between one person and another, so the
'natural' breaks in register will also vary in frequency by a similar
proportion. Around the aforementioned A, this 5% variation would amount to
a little over a semitone. If the voice production is dependent on volumes
rather than lengths, as it probably does in part, then the variation in
pitch at which register breaks occur will be of the order of 15% between
one person and another. This makes a nonsense of the SI's claims to have
defined universal register breaks to the precise frequency for everyone. In
addition, I'm being taught that registers overlap a bit anyway, and this
fact can be used to one's advantage.


06-15-2006, 11:14 AM
The SI's arithmetic is wrong too. An A=432 Hz on an equal-tempered (i.e.
logarithmic) scale corresponds to 256.87 Hz, not the claimed 'magic' or
'scientific' 256 Hz for middle C. If they actually mean a diatonic scale
(the one based on ratios of integers like 2/1, 3/2, 4/3 etc.) then their
middle C is 259.19 Hz - an even worse match to 256. Yes, we all agree that
256 (Hz) would be a nice number to have as middle C (2 to the power 8; the
octave higher is 512 Hz = 2 to the power 9, and so on), but there is
nothing 'magic' or 'scientific' about it, because the physical unit (the
second of time, as in cycles per second) is completely man-made and
arbitrary. Any attempt to relate the second to fundamental features of
nature, as the VTP tries to do, amounts to pure numerology, not science.
The VTP's version of history is misleading and contentious. Pitch has
varied from an extremely high A=567 Hz to a low A=377 Hz (a difference of a
fifth!). Mozart used A=422 Hz, Handel 423 Hz; neither correspond to the
magic middle C of 256 Hz. The international standard of A=440 (standard, or
so-called concert pitch) was first agreed in 1939 in the UK (British
Standards Institute), then by the ISO (International Organisation for
Standardisation) in 1955 and 1975. Therefore, contrary to the SI's claims,
it IS an agreed international standard, and is broadcast regularly by
various radio stations. Let us keep it that way. Despite the USA also
adopting the standard (through its institution ANSI), it is North America
that seems to be the chief culprit in the upward creep of pitch.
However, if 'period' instrumentalists and singers wish to play at an
appropriate'period' pitch, then why not? As long as they know why they're
doing it (i.e. for sound historical and musical reasons), and not for
spurious pseudo-scientific reasons. If period players and singers wish to
define a new lower standard, then an A=422 Hz or thereabouts would be
sensible (this is just above the standard pitch of 415.30 Hz for G-sharp).
In conclusion, the question of standard pitch is a non-issue, as long as
everyone either sticks to it (the defined international standard) or says
why they wish to use another standard in performance; the related questions
of temperament and tuning I think are much much more interesting. For
example, I believe that the development of vibrato and tremolo in singing
might be a necessary by-product of the move to well-tempered or
even-tempered scales. But, ... another time.
David Smythe
(OK, I confess! - in case you were suspecting me of being an old pedant ...
Emeritus Professor of Geophysics, University of Glasgow, Scotland)
To unsubscribe mail [log in to unmask] with:
unsubscribe lieder-l
- or -
try the web interface at


06-16-2006, 08:49 AM
I was unceremoniously kicked out of LYM once it was discovered that I was schizophrenic. I'm still trying to put my life back together. I gave up plans to teach for the asinine organization. I'm going to go get my Masters in political science in January. Thanks for giving me info. I wish I'd had before joining the cult.


06-16-2006, 08:51 AM
You meant to say that A=432 is on the same diatonic scale as C=259.2, yielding a ratio of 5:3 for a sixth. However, this tempering would yield a ratio of 10:9 between G (at a fifth above C, or 3:2) and A. Whereas, if C=256 and G=384 and A=432, then the interval from G to A is 9:8.
In Johannes Kepler's Harmonies of the World, Book III, 10:9 and 9:8 are alternative intervals for whole steps. Kepler calls these intervals the minor tone and major tone, respectively. Each of these tones is composed of a semitone (16:15), which is the interval between B and C or between E and F, and either a diesis (25:24) or a limma (135:128), both of which are smaller than the semitone. The octave encompasses three major tones, two minor tones and two semitones. The perfect fifth (3:2) encompasses two major tones, one minor tone and one semitone, leaving one of each (major, minor, semi) to complete the octave with a perfect major fourth (4:3). Thus, 432 is not an unreasonable pitch for A given C=256, but A=426.667 would be the alternative obtained by putting a minor tone between G and A. This alternative (A=426.667) would seem to give mathematically simpler intervals between A and the other notes, but suppose we make the interval from A to F-sharp, the same as the interval from C to A (which makes sense because both intervals encompass nine half-steps). F-sharp would then have a pitch of 711.111 and the interval from C (512) to F-sharp would be 25:18, or 1.3889, but from F-sharp to C(1024), 36:25, or 1.44. Conversely, if we increase the interval from A to F-sharp to match the larger alternative interval from C to A (27:16, or 1.6875 instead of 5:3, or 1.667), then F-sharp has pitch 729, and C(512) to F-sharp becomes 1.423828 and F-sharp to C(1024), 1.404664, which gives a more even division of the octave into two equal intervals (what is known as the Lydian interval). Further, A=432 yields a more harmonious interval between D and G while keeping D-A at the perfect fifth 3:2. If we set A a major tone (9:8) above G, then we must also set D a major tone above C in order to preserve the fifth from D to A. This leaves "one of each" between D and G, for a perfect major fourth (4:3). But if A were only a minor tone above G and D a minor tone above C, then between D and G are two major tones and a semitone, which create an interval of 27:20. An equal-tempered logarithmic progression from C=256 to A would put A near 430. Thus, clearly, Giuseppe Verdi's A=432 is a trade-off intended to make the other notes in the scale (besides A) more harmonious with each other and to get a better Lydian interval, and does not invalidate C=256.
The Schiller Institute's insistence on C=256 is firmly grounded in the history of the best composers, and NOT in the "period tunings":
In every period of history, you will find a variety of tunings being used because you have a variety of characters with opposing political motives! There is no "Classical", "Romantic", or "Baroque" period of music: these names refer to political factions and their ideologies.


06-16-2006, 08:54 AM
There was an ex-member who mentioned some names that I recognized. I always thought Ardena was a snobby <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>. And Tim thinks he knows every damn thing (I know, I know, what Larouchie doesn't). Do you know LA William? Do you know David and Jen Chaine. Jen Chaine is marrying a Nigerian who has no U.S. citizenship. Figure that one out. The number for the DC office has changed. It's now 202-232-6004, give them my best regards. Unfortunately I fell for some guy in the movement. I thought he had feelings for me but haven't heard from him since some Aussie <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> named Joanne McAndrews told me to stay away.


06-16-2006, 08:57 AM
Cato Institute High Rollers
Epstein wrote book about how Progressives destroyed the U.S. Constitution.
----Judicial Activism ticks Epstein off. -------At the Constitutional convention, Benjamin Franklin said "I have wrought you a Republic, it is your job to keep it"
I have a feeling that using one's brain ticks him off
----Pamphlet cover too extreme: Cheney is not Hitler!
What is Fascism? Fasces means a bundle of sticks, it's Latin. Fasces were used by whoever was controlling Rome, be it a king, consuls, etc. Figure it out for yourselves people, I cannot be all things to all people!
Another guy said LaRouche is against Freedom. My comrade Julie said 'What is Freedom", basically telling her to read Mills "On Liberty"
The speech was like a debate club and got food. We were catered to and they catered to us: us against them, know thy self, a clash of ideas, and self control
We invited the Venture Capitalists to watch the Web cast
Some were embarrassed to be their own man in the presence of their "friends", but outside, a South African Engineer who knew of S. Africa's dark past spoke to us
Cato people were too complicated, all flash and no substance (pure Sophistry)
Venture Capitalists
Late twenties/early thirties guy knew about his business
--- confused about Kekorian v. Dr. Kevorkian
……….. utilizing people v. destroying people
Young Iowa Intern for Cato Institute: He took down website/phone number
He took a year off from the vortex of lies to figure out how ideas are propagated within the Beltway--------"What is a lie when both are participating in it"? Go read Plato's Republic
We ran into South Africans/British
British Ballers pulled up in the sound car and fools were saying "Life, Liberty, and Property". When you let things define you, you lose your soul.
We ran into a young girl from Capitol Hill, who called us a "cult", she looked exhausted. Being a slave will do that to you unless you stand up for your ideas, values, your very being.
We ran into an Ethiopian teacher. Her country was "under the influence" of Italy. She looked at our A frames
We infiltrated her class with "Global political economy pamphlets". She took a global political economy pamphlet in her class because of its "seductive" power.
She is against Free trade/Globalization but believes in the "Facts of Life". You take the good, you take the bad, and there you have, the "Facts of Life, Facts of Life"
She fell further under our power when we said "Free Trade is Treasonous". Did I mention that the pamphlet we showed her was called "Clash of Civilizations" : EIR


06-16-2006, 12:05 PM
I called LYM-DC and talked to someone who told me what I already knew. I was expendable because of my illness and because the group was in a "war", they didn't have the time to cater to me. Fool that I am, I still carry a torch for a LaRouche guy. I want him to be happy, whether it's with me or someone else, but lym is not good for him.


06-18-2006, 01:28 AM
Let us see what all of this work on the streets of DC have lead to.
One can make a comment that some of the LYM do not know when it is time to get out of the rain after reading this article.

Sunday, June 4, 2006
Heavy rain's no pain for fest
50-50 chance of more today
By Matthew Stone Special to the Telegram & Gazette and John Dignam TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF

A steady, often ferocious deluge struck Central Massachusetts yesterday morning, then played party-pooper throughout the day by canceling, delaying or forcing inside scores of events, ranging from school graduations to tennis tournaments to family reunions.
And the worst part of it all, according to Charles Foley, meteorologist with the National Weather Service office in Taunton, is that there's a 50-50 chance of more rain today. He would not comment when asked if that meant a 50 percent chance of heavy rain compared to a 50 percent chance of heavier rain. ..................
At the DCU Center, as Democratic politicos met inside, supporters of the candidates appeared to have abandoned their posts outside the arena by midday. Candidate signs with wooden posts leaned against the gates: There were no eager supporters propping them up and waving to passers-by.
Supporters of perennial presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche were the only ones to remain outside the arena, aiming to reverse what they called the nation's "financial storm."

  • **
    Two months ago, this encounter occured.
    Here is what happens when the cult meets a Dem on DC streets. This is from the Democratic underground and is pretty much on the mark.

  • 923446, A tip for Anti-Bush Canvassers/ Protesters
    Posted by Carni on Thu Apr-13-06 01:27 PM
    As a pretty liberal very politically informed person who detests W and tends to be in the MIHOP camp about bu and 911 (which some people find *out there* I realize) I just had a real honey of an encounter with if you can imagine...
    an Anti-Bush protester!
    I went to my post office earlier and as I was coming out, I noticed signs that said "Stay out of the bushes" "impeach and imprison"
    There were two people standing near the signs next to a table with petition type stuff on I'm all excited and venture over to talk to them (at which point some <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> revs up behind me in their car and screams *<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> traitor* at me... some male, 20 something repuke looking type)

06-18-2006, 01:30 AM
Needless to say having "<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> traitor" screamed at me didn't please me, but I continued on and got to the two people with the signs etc and I said "is this some sort of a petition to impeach Bush"?
The guy says *oh it's way more than a petition* and at that point I was thinking great WTF IS this, because that sounded kind of ominous...
So then suddenly I had this woman in my face blabbing away and foisting magazines at me--I look down at the magazine and find out they are LAROUCHE people!
(ACK! I thought to myself)
Quite honestly, Larouche is not my bag...yeah he's right about bush, but on a lot of other stuff he's out there IMO but I thought...I don't want to be rude, because they at least have enough guts to make an attempt (but there was no way I was giving them any money because I think their party movement is not for me)
So then the woman asks me if I will sign their mailing list I said fine, filled out the thing...but said I am not giving the phone number because I don't give out my number for this stuff--she says Oh come on you won't mind getting a call from me and I am like YEAH, I WILL...I am not giving you my phone number - SORRY.
So then the woman goes ON and ON and On and keeps foisting assorted magazines at me and she's one of these *close talkers* to boot--I would back up and she would follow. I kept saying "yeah, I know about that already--yeah I know you don't have to sell me on how bad bush is I am well aware" She doesn't even acknowledge my comments and just keeps right on lecturing.
At that point I was REALLY getting sick of the whole encounter... but I am still wanting to be polite, so I said to her I am sorry before you waste all this time with me -- I already know all this, I used to research and write for said I already detest George Bush, so you don't need to sell me on that point and I am sorry but I don't have any money to donate today. I thought this was some type of petition to impeach bush when I walked over here...
Does this woman listen?
Oh HELL No---she continues blathering and getting kind of I support an illegal war, do I support a fascist government bla bla (didn't I just SAY I DIDN'T? HELLO?)
THEN she slams the Democrats (the ones we have now...which believe me there are many days when I don't think too highly of them either) She slams the online community and bloggers and goes into a whole deal about how people need to take to the streets and back Larouche bla bla bla bla *how all these bull people on the net are spinning their wheels* yada yada (OH REALLY? And two people looking sort of extreme on the street corner has done WHAT, EXACTLY? Compared to say...uncovering all of what the bloggers have discovered? I think not)


06-18-2006, 01:31 AM
Then she starts bashing my Senator(who I happen to like, he was one of the only ones to vote against the patriot act) and I am now not just annoyed but rapidly entering into the <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> off range--but I still want to be polite and support their disdain for bush, so I finally said "OK, thanks I will just take these pamphlets and read them over later, but I don't have any more time for this now"
INSTEAD of sensing that I am all done and letting it go... she tries to get ME to take numerous Larouche pamphlets to pass them out to people I know.
I said no, I'm sorry I don't want to waste your printing costs because I don't go anywhere where I would be handing out these pamphlets-- She doesn't let that phase her and goes back to her crap about Larouche and how great he is and how what bush has done is illegal and this party of Dems sucks bla bla and says "what you don't have any friends that you can give these to?" I said "no I don't have any friends that will be into this" so she's arguing with me that if I knew who Larouche was and how great he was they'd be interested bla bla
I said "LOOK I KNOW WHO LAROUCHE IS I AM WELL FAMILIAR and I am not into him but I'll check out your pamphlets and think about it"
THEN she starts with...well can't you give us a few bucks today? Not even 20 dollars? I was like *NO SORRY* she says you can't even give 5 dollars, one dollar?
You can't even give one dollar? I was like NO -- then she says well why not write a check?
At that point I did a talk to the hand gesture and moved on-- I was <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font>.
I had the fleeting thought while driving back home that maybe Larouche is on the Rove payroll because that was just F'ing OBNOXIOUS!
I admire EVERYONE with enough guts to get out there in public and try to inform people about bush, but that presentation I just endured was truly horrendous...if I had been a less informed *on the fence* type who was starting to dislike bu and felt like checking those people out...I would have thought that woman was a rude and pushy maniac of some kind.
Just wanted to share this bizzarro world experience and I am filing this encounter in my memory for when I am trying to educate people about bu in the future with non-political junkies--that approach was just NOT GOOD IMO!
Had to share!
923476, I ran into a bunch of these folks
Posted by Mythsaje on Thu Apr-13-06 01:30 PM
last summer. I don't like Larouche, and these folks are relentless, almost cultist in their intensity.
I took one of their pamphlets and glanced at in the car on my way home (wife was driving). My only comment on it was...too dry for most people. Why bother printing thousands of pamphlets that no one will bother to read?
I could design a better pamphlet in my sleep.
923540, She gave me three magazine sized things
Posted by Carni on Thu Apr-13-06 01:37 PM
They are still sitting on the passenger seat of my car--I was so turned off I don't think I will even look at themthink they will go right in the trash.
This woman was worse than the *Watch Tower* people-- what the hell was she thinking?
I am standing there saying I hate bush and I agree you don't need to tell me how bad he is...but she manages to elevate things to an argument stage?


06-18-2006, 01:36 AM
That was just very VERY WEIRD!
923800, It IS weird...
Posted by Mythsaje on Thu Apr-13-06 02:09 PM
It's like they're indocrinated. I'm not sure you can have a rational political discussion with them...
923895, I am SOOOO bummed that I signed their mailing list
Posted by Carni on Thu Apr-13-06 02:19 PM
I need to learn that just because someone is anti-bush... I am not obligated to be polite!

923949, I'm usually very polite...
Posted by Mythsaje on Thu Apr-13-06 02:23 PM
it's a failing.
But I'm not easy to push either. I do 'immovable object' very well.
923521, I hate pushy people like that. I ran into one at an Ethan Allen furniture
Posted by AndyA on Thu Apr-13-06 01:35 PM
store once. I told he I was just looking, not planning on buying anything today, just getting some ideas. And I told her that again. And again. And over, and over, and over.
Finally, I said, "Look, I know where to find you if I need you. I do not need your help, and your constant questions are distracting me from doing what I want to do, which is to LOOK and get some IDEAS to think about. OK? I'll find you if I need you."
I felt like I'd been assaulted by this woman!
I didn't buy anything from Ethan Allen, I did not want to go back to that store and deal with that woman again.
Being too pushy gets you nowhere, in my opinion. This is a great story to remind people they need to be respectful when protesting or talking to others. Courtesy and respect for others should never be forgotten.
923599, Yes, this was EXACTLY like a furniture/ car salesperson encounter
Posted by Carni on Thu Apr-13-06 01:43 PM
I was standing there thinking I just about got run over and screamed at to hear THIS?
923553, Two run-ins I had with LaRouchies in Boston
Posted by WilliamPitt on Thu Apr-13-06 01:39 PM
One was back in 1997 in Brighton Center. A LaRouchie was tabling outside a diner and arguing that we didn't have to free Tibet...because China had already freed Tibet by taking it over.
Then there are the guys who operate every weekend in Harvard Square. I went by one day and was handed a bunch of literature. Cheney sucks, OK...the Iraq war is illegal, OK...wait...the Zionist World Conspiracy? The Jews and the World Bank?
All of it wound up min a wadded-up ball back on their table.
LaRouche sucks.
923634, I knew he was a loon--but I had forgotten the whole scenario


06-18-2006, 01:43 AM
Posted by Carni on Thu Apr-13-06 01:48 PM
In retrospect after having my memory refreshed (I had forgotten about the Zionist conspiracy crap) I think I should have just been rude and done the same when I heard who they were stumping for!
924382, They're obnoxious fanatics
Posted by VancSouthpaw on Thu Apr-13-06 02:58 PM
I remember hearing about Phil Donahue beating the <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> out of one of them at an airport quite a few years ago. Apparently they have learned nothing over the years.
924606, What really burns my <font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> is they are calling themselves New Democrats
Posted by Carni on Thu Apr-13-06 03:22 PM
Or *true Democrats* or something along those lines--anyone not in the know would have thought they were affiliated with the Dem party...unfortunately that didn't occur to me at the time!
924412, I got in a fight with one on the phone
Posted by rucky on Thu Apr-13-06 03:01 PM
that's what it took to get me off their list

In the org, we called this lunacy either "being potent" or "Hubris". Either way, we were outside in the rain manning card table shrines 35 years ago and the LYM are still outside manning card table shrines today.
The Phil Donahue incident I think refers to when a member named Bill Ferguson confronted Phil Donahue at a card table shrine at an airport 20 or so years ago.
If you remember Bill, he was a Princeton math scholorship student we convinced need to drop out of college to really change the world. 25 years later, Bill is still manning a card table shrine in the Boston area.
Okiemute, spend some time reading the many posts here and you will see the fun you are now missing.


06-18-2006, 07:35 AM
lol xlcr! No No No No No No has been around for like forever, I see! To think that I was once part of the madness.


06-20-2006, 08:35 AM
All quiet on the LaRouche-FACTNet front today... And the last couple of days.
Anyhow, an old question of mine: Anybody out there knowing anything about LaRouche and connections to/criticism of scientology? Their MO:s are so similar, in Stockholm, Sweden in the beginning of the 80's it was from time to time hard to distinguish the two!


06-23-2006, 03:34 PM
Funny you mention the 1980's in asking about Scientology. It was during this period that we had memos from security warning the filed and phone teams about members of Scientology who were becoming contacts and leaving phone numbers for contact. According to security, the Scientologists were gathering info and attempting to do something to us.
After that memo, nothing else ever appeared as we were now busy taking money for our worthless promissory notes. Mentioning cults in the org was a tricky proposition as you had to word things in such a way as to not make the members feel like they are in a cult.
Our next run in with Scientology was later ivovlving a few things. We met an heir to part of the Dupont fortune named Lewis Dupont Smith. He had 10 million in a trust fund we lusted after. He bought our end of the world argument and intitially signed over some large sums to us for "book investments". The story is that he wanted to sign over several million to us and his parents said "no". Dupont really bought our end of the world line and had his beliefs confirmed when the stock market fell 400 points or so in 1987. Of course Lyn predicted it and he argued that his money would be safer with Larouche investments than in the Dow Jones.
Dupont's father created quite a commotion as he had his son declared legally insane for working with Lyn and tied up his money in the trust fund.
A few laters, Dupont's family seemed to work with some local Leesburg sherrifs and co called cult deporogrammers and this started a whole other fiasco of events. The people invovled were arrested for kidnapping and some went to prison.
This stuff is pretty Byzantine as it leads into a lawsuit by Scientology against CAN which bankrupted CAN. You can read some material below and look this up.

  • CAN
    The Cult Awareness Network has court dates set for the malicious prosecution case against Scientology and Cynthia Kisser's own suit.
    "March 18: The Illinois Supreme Court has scheduled oral arguments in Springfield, Illinois on March 18 in the case of Cult Awareness Network, v. 'church' of scientology et al. CAN is seeking to have its case against scientology International, The 'church' of scientology of Illinois, and the law firm of Bowles & Moxon reinstated. The malicious prosecution case, which alleges that the defendants supported multiple lawsuits for the purpose of destroying CAN, was dismissed by a state trial court for technical reasons that did not address the merits of the facts of the case. The Supreme Court begins hearing arguments at 9:30 A.M., and the CAN v. CSI case is the third case scheduled to be heard that day. Attorney Helena Kobrin, who does work for the 'church' of scientology, has sent an offer to purchase the CAN v.CSI case to Philip Martino, the trustee managing CAN's estate in federal bankruptcy court. At this point Martino has not sold the case to Kobrin, so the hearing is still scheduled. CAN will be represented pro bono by the Chicago law firm of Mayer, Brown & Platt.

06-23-2006, 03:38 PM
"June 16: The federal lawsuit Kisser v. Coalition has been set for trial starting June 16 in Chicago, Defendants in the case are individuals and entities associated with the 'church' of scientology International and the Lyndon LaRouche movement. The Unification Church was dismissed out of the case. CSI filed four summary judgments and was able to get certain counts against the 'church', its 'president' Heber Jentzsch, and other defendants dismissed, but libel counts remain against the scientology and LaRouche defendants."

  • **
    While this was going on, the org got involved in the Iran Contra proccedings by working with the Christic Institute whish some calimed was a Scientology front. This led to other joint projects until that fell apart. The funny thing about this is that some people in the org were telling former memebrs that the joke was on Scientology as they were writing dossiers on Scientology for interested parties who were paying for the reports!
    One thing you begin to understand is that all cults operate the same way in ways which are quite simple. The cults of personality also operate the same way. The usual difference is over the details of how the cult presents itself. larouche is pretty unique as he has the religious experience growing up in a fundamentalist syle Quaker family while creating a political cult which can worship him.
    About 4 years ago, someone emailed me this PDF about L. Ron Hubbard
    I read this and was quite stunned as you find that Lyn and Hubbard shared many personal traits. After leaving the org it was quite an experience to see how Hubbard had a hatred of the British, a need for sycophants, a hidden black hole of security spending through endless assasination tales, a hatred of psychology, a view that the world does not understand their mission, a grand scheme of ancient history which continues to this day, an insatiable appetite for money, private "sessions" with members and many other odd ball things.
    The Vernacular was similar as both groups had a vocabulary for things which were common to members, but not outsiders. The freakiest thing to me was how Scientology uses techniques to make members "Clear" where Lyn uses Beyond Psych sessions to "Unblock" members.
    If you look for a few minutes you can find a lot of similar intersests in smearing people, spying, dirty tricks. There was even a site I saw which claimed that the top guys in the Liberty Lobby were Scientology connected. It is a crazy world in which the farther you are away from the cults, the better.
    With the supposed Scientology reports written by Lyn's security staff, I am surprised Scientology does not mess around with Lyn's cult.

06-23-2006, 05:57 PM
Interesting info xlcr.


06-25-2006, 06:13 AM
Likewise okiemute
On your last statement, maybe Scientologist realize they have bigger fish to fry rather than waste their time going after bunch of school children. I do have a set of questions for you
1) Why does LHL have beef with Britian? Does he just personal hatred towards them or did he notice some incident involed the British for example the Falklands War. With incidents like these he wanted to scam more people to join his cult and ever since has been playing the same old tune?
2) Has Helga always been full of herself since she came around the cult or did she get like that when the LYM first formed? I knew she was very arrogant but the reason I'm asking this is a former supporter told me he attended the Labor Day 2004 conference. There Helga went into a ranting rampage about how Germany is the greatest nation in the world and history. Continued with "why women are smarter than men" and claimed Schiller wrote this.
3) Did she babble the same tune to the boomer members in the 70's and 80's? Or was she just there with LHL like a ornamate on a christmas tree?
If I asked a question(s) you and everybody else answered, sorry about that. Like the rest of you, the cult screwed up my life also. I have been busy trying to get my life back together.
James St. John Smythe


06-25-2006, 06:15 AM
Likewise okiemute
On your last statement, maybe Scientologist realize they have bigger fish to fry rather than waste their time going after bunch of school children. I do have a set of questions for you
1) Why does LHL have beef with Britian? Does he just personal hatred towards them or did he notice some incident involed the British for example the Falklands War. With incidents like these he wanted to scam more people to join his cult and ever since has been playing the same old tune?
2) Has Helga always been full of herself since she came around the cult or did she get like that when the LYM first formed? I knew she was very arrogant but the reason I'm asking this is a former supporter told me he attended the Labor Day 2004 conference. There Helga went into a ranting rampage about how Germany is the greatest nation in the world and history. Continued with "why women are smarter than men" and claimed Schiller wrote this.
3) Did she babble the same tune to the boomer members in the 70's and 80's? Or was she just there with LHL like a ornamate on a christmas tree?
If I asked a question(s) you and everybody else answered, sorry about that. Like the rest of you, the cult screwed up my life also. I have been busy trying to get my life back together.
James St. John Smythe


06-26-2006, 03:07 PM
When you start to really take a close look at the people who Lyn and security wish to get close to, you begin to see how Lyn's writings will shift. I do not have the names in front of me, but, there were a few conspirator writers who Lyn picked up the whole Rockefeller / CFR / Trilat line from, almost verbatim.
In this era Lyn and security were meeting with KKK and far right groups who urged us to expose more about the Jews involvement in everything evil. By the late 70's we were no longer communists but were doing tricks for the Republicans. This led to us making the Russians as the number one evil in the world for a while which culminated in what Lyn called "The Third Rome Thesis". Everything was now wrapped around an even more massive conspiracy which used the British, the Zionists, the Venitians , the Dem party and everyone else to ensure a final world run by the Russians. Our TV ads were now about the threat of the Russians and how Walter Mndale was a KGB agent.
The hate and conspiracy are interlinked and depend on the audience being addressed. For the 1960 style SDS left which Lyn wanted, the CIA became the all encompassing boogeyman. In the mid 1970's when we were courting workers we found that there were a lot of John Birch types who had more money than broke students. Approaching these people as hard core communists and Socialist revolutionaries will not get you very far. So, we adopted their enemies as our enemies and kicked it up a notch so to speak.
There is a lot of speculation about Lyn going real bonkers when his second main squeeze , Carol Schnitzer, dumped Lyn for some hot young British blood named Christopher White. That created the whole nightmare of Jan 1974 and CIA and now British brainwashing of members. This all was known as a hoax years later by the participants and some security chiefs after they left the org. Many of the org's critics view this era as when Lyn webnt crazy about the British.
My own thoughts are that is too easy to explain the incredible paranoia and lunacy of a Larouche. Maybe an intensity, but not the whole package. I think a few things were occuring now which may have some value.
Lyn's importance requires not just personal enemies, but elaborate, almost mystical enemies to fight. We pretty much peaked domestically with the Rockefellers but needed to globalize Lyn's delusions for a larger audience. That audience was in Europe and South America.
That audience had a history of dealing with the British rather than the Rockefellers. If you were in the org, such changes were no longer a debatable issue. Lyn had so many assasination plots running around that to question any thing was traiterous. Indeed, many members who droppe dout were braded as traitors, ADL agents and connected to KGB operations against us.
IN the regions we would be told the following. "Lyn has made another earth shattering breakthrough in identifying the underlying dynamic of events today. In a sense, Lyn has successfully peeled away the onion to reveal the inner secrets of the Gods of Olympus" Each new nemeny Lyn created was just an extension of the whole plot against humanity. In the org, you were sitting in a meeting room with endless "Ooohs and Ahhhs" over these groundbreaking revelations.


06-26-2006, 03:11 PM
The same thing is done today as the yutes are given the same speeches with the fate of humanity resting on their shoulders. I swear I could take Lyn's interviews for the past 35 years and see two lines always present.
"The global economy is finished, bankrupt, dead. In the immedieate future, it will all be shut down as the system can no longer function".
"It's bad, real bad. I do not know if the US can survive the next year or so."
If you stick around long enough, you will pick up the grift. As the org sweeps like locusts through phone lists, it needs new blood to call . There is never anything practical in this, Lyn just has to take whatever fiield you want and create the most massive conspiracy of evil ever assembled and tie into the problem.
We burned through anti drug moms, pro nuclear engineers, defense people, intell people with pretty much the same convoluted package fine tuned for them. If you notice when Lyn got out of jail, he went hog wild on Satanism for a while. The org declared video games and Rock music the work of the devil and the Oligarchy. For the past 6 years the org has leeched off of anti Bush tendencies and declared it self the saviour of the Democratic party.
The British are usefull because frankly, they have been in the center of so many things in the history of the world. You can only take the Nights of Malta so far and the Isle of Capri before it becomes laughable. There is also a usefull tract in being able to take the British and then hook it up with The Jews. This is pretty old anti semitic lunacy which has one of the Twelve lost tribes of Israel ending up in England and setting up shop in Britain to rule the world. Critics like King take this a step further and say that when Lyn says British he really means Jews. That is a step I can't fully take, only one step maybe.
There is a method to the Larouche madness though.
Reading the vulumes of org output you find that the story usually revolves around Zionists being run from England who then do evil. Or , The Jews run the world via Britain and it's relationship ti the US. Look at all of the combinations and it looks like a soduko puzzle as you can shuffle the enemies to create new enemies out to get Lyn. Either way, the Zionists, The Jews, anything with a Star of David seems to unite many people into creating new spins on old conspiracies.
The introduction of Helga created new dynamics for members. The shift, as usually is the case, is a subtle change in logic. Our publications before Hegla's grand appearance was after we published a lot about Nazi economics and work about how bad the Nazi's were. SInce we were both communists and Russian lovers back then, Stalin was good and all of his murderous rampage was forgiven since the Germans were defeated.


06-26-2006, 03:13 PM
The briefings and the local meetings took on a different tone as now, we were slowly becoming apologists for the Germans. This process sped up as we would soon be publishing and saying that the poroblem was not the German people since they produce good wine, music and poets, but the British. The line we took was what many of the KKK and Liberty Lobby types were printing in that Hitler was a tool of the Jews like The Rothschilds. We kicked this up another notch and now had the British and the Zionists Grand conspiracy were the money and the brains behind the Nazis. By the time we were finished, old rocket sceintists who ran slave labor camps were now our friends.
What I wish you all can understand is that Lyn is only as powerful as the delusional enemies he creates. The script is recycled for new LYM who were not born yet when the first act was put on. The same people Lyn announces as being good were pure evil 30 years ago. This revolving door of villians is like old episodes of Batman where ythe fun stops after you see the villains a few times.
Lyn can keep the British and the Zionists on top of the evil food chain as he then creates the comparisons of himself to Christ as the only hope for mankind. I have some great Helga quotes and Lyn's final words to us before being sent to prison for fraud.
More later.


06-30-2006, 01:36 PM
When, for how long, and where were you in the cult? I was in from May or June to October 2003. I have bipolar disorder, and I was kicked out because I didn't agree with them about, among other things, how I should manage my own health (they didn't think I needed to manage it at all).
I'm trying not to think about it too much lately, and I only check this board once in a while, and I try not to post too much, but I think this is an important issue. They actually believed that my illness didn't exist, that they could cure it by insisting that it didn't exist. The LYM believes it can just remove a person from their environment, make up whatever story they want about them, and the real person ceases to exist. Why not? They can make the real person seem to stop existing when they get them to stay a lot of the time.
But, hey. I'm lucky. At least I'm alive.
Really lucky.
There was also a 19-year old guy whose parents were posting here a while ago because they were really concerned because he was involved with the org and they thought he may have asperger syndrome.
The nature of the organization is manic-depressive and schizophrenic and alcoholic. The most offensive thing in the world to them is someone with a pre-existing mental condition who is in treatment. Anyone who has ever been in any kind of counseling is more threatening than any of the groups they're always vilifying in print and in their class meetings. The cult would not function without denial. Anyone who strives to be happy and healthy is truly its worst enemy.


06-30-2006, 06:44 PM
"Anyone who strives to be happy and healthy is truly its worst enemy."
Excellent, Erin. Precisely why they feel the need to vilify those who have left because in their heart the stay-behinds know that the refuseniks have moved on to a much better and more productive life than the one the cultists pretend to have with their cockeyed geometrizing and inchoate conspiricizing.
Happy Fourth of July to everyone!


07-01-2006, 09:40 AM
Erin, I was there for 1 week and a half. What do u mean by "the nature of the organization is manic-depressive and schizophrenic"? Are u saying that the organization causes people to have manic-depressive disorder and schizophrenia? I was diagnosed with schizo-affective disorder around the time I was with LYM? A member named Nate told me there was an alcohol problem within the organization.


07-01-2006, 09:42 AM
I was located in DC. Where were u located? Did u have "struggle sessions"? Would u mind telling me about ur experience with the cult?
Thanks Erin


07-08-2006, 12:18 PM
I wish to shed some info on how Lyn has often compared himself to Jesus Christ over the years. First, you have to see what we were doing in the 1970's when the NCLC was formed on college campuses. In that era we were hard core Marxists, who of course, could only rely on Lyn to be the Marxist expert. The Campaigners we published were on Fuerbach and a general Marxist review of Christianity. We also attacked the hispanic cultures for being impotent because of the backwardness of folling Catholicism.
To sum up, we were Marxists and had no interest in Church or Religion or God. We had so many crazy Rockefeller mobilizations going on that these mobilizations often seemed to peak during holidays. The mark of a committed LCer was distributing leaflets and such during masses on Sunday and deploying on Xmas or Easter.
Little was known of Lyn's childhood and how his parents had their own sect operating in the New England area among Quakers. The family was known to be quite the trumpeter of God and caused a lot of mischief among different Quaker groups. What we ould be reading in our magazines and New Solidarities was the concept that we in the LC were going to be potent and God Like in transforming the human species. The operating word was first "Potent" in our attacks on the left. The next lingo for us was "Hubris". We had many local classes on the question of how powerfull the devil was in exercising free will. This morphed into our "Fusion" Campaigner which had a painting by William Blake on the cover about giving fire to man.
This stuff continued for awhile until we made our move to the right side of delusions and now we had Lyn writing about Christian economics and the conspiracy of the month club now involved the Vatican. The enemies of the Vatican were now our enemies and we included the Jesuits and the Knights of Malta and anyhting from Venice. We repeatedle told the members that Lyun has an inside track to the vatican through Cardinal Ratzinger who was in our daily briefings virtually daily.
That does sound bizarre, doesn't it.
Lyn and Helga were able to get a photo op in the vatican and I think Lyn was the best amn for millionaire heir Lewis Dupont Smith's photo op in the Vatican as well. Dupont was marrying his sweetheart while Lyn was trying to marry Lewis's 10 million dollar inheritance.
If you are in the org long enough and then leave, you figure out some things later. One of the functions of the org was to be Lyn's revenge against his childhood and early enemies of delusions. One of the fascinating quirks of our enemies list was the American Friends Service Committee. A pacifist org which decades earlier had a run in with the Larouche clan in Mass. One day, the AFSC became another part of the hydra we were going to kill with card table shrines. The AFSC was now part of a world wide plot involving depopulation and was also part of a plot to assasinate Lyn and Helga.
Keep in mind that once we hit the 1980's. assasination plots were a daily part of the briefings and led to endless mobilizations which of course needed hundreds of thousands of dollars to stop. It was of no concern to Lyn and Helga nad the various leaders that members were getting very sick from the lunacy of going 24/7 and were being starved. The era was one of making a member think that his or her request for 5 bucks was going to cause Lyn's death. In many locals, we had NC's order stop payment on rent and utility checks to send money to security.
As the 1980's progressed, we started issuing worthless promisorry notes in the millions and running variouys check kiting and credit card scams. Investigations were underway and almost all of the lawsuits filed against us were kept secret from members.


07-08-2006, 12:24 PM
The briefings had numerous memos by Lyn about Satan at this time. Instead of Satan being our friend for defying God and giving fire to man, the members were now being tempted by Satan. This led to many memos by Lyn about how anyone who offers info, talks or cooperates with a Grand Jury or investigator is now doing Satan's work. Besides wishing to destroy the human species, Satan was after Lyn himself.
Lyn began his speeches by talking about "Agape" and his love of the world and committment to keep it from being destroyed. His crusade was a selfless one in which NO ONE else could satop the collapse of civilization except himself. You could be at a one conference after another where Lyn would repeat the mantra "I have measured the leadership of the world, and they have all failed. No one has the guts to save civilization as we know it except me. I do not run for president cause I need the job. The job is to save the human species"
This end of the world approach was always used by Lyn as it works. All you have to do is use either the words "Civilization" or "The Human Species" or "The world economy" to a bunch of college drop outs yutes and you are in business for a few more years.
Lyn would now talk about himself in the same breath as Christ by bringing in "Gethsemane" into his writings. This happened after we staged a play about Socrates death at a Virginia conference. That line is still used to explain to gullible yutes that credit card scams did no exist in the 1980s but we were prosecuted for teaching the yutes about secrets known only to the inner elite.
For many, many months, Gethsemane was the issuse. Lyn would describe his life as being trapped like an animal because of assasination threats . Lyn was now alone as his apostles like Gus Axios and the evil members in Detroit sold him out for silver. Lyn had the wieght of the world on his shoulders as he was getting ready to die for the sin of saving humanity.
In reality, Lyn and Helga had a massive estate in Virginia with endless Rheingau and a staff to rival any Baron. The members on the phone team were the ones being indicted . Lyn was also planning an escape to Indonesia or some nearby country to avoid extradition laws according to former security members and contacts.
The Gethsemane schtick continued to build up and the members were basically told that Lyn is going to jail becasue you did not raise enough money for a legal defense. The reality was that we raised more money in legal money than we were accused of absconding with by the prosecutors. The prosecution had deals for us to sign which would have resulted in a small fine, some money being paid back and suspended sentences. Instead, Lyn now became the best lawyer on the planet and mounted his version of a case which got us both convicted and laughed out of court. Lyn also got indicted for income tax fraud where he neglected to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's for several years.


07-08-2006, 12:29 PM
This now led to another LC version of insanity where we made the members feel proud that they are going to jail for decades. In one sense, jail was a step up from the LC where you at least got three squares a day, your rent was paid and you now had health care.
Here is a speech by Lyn which has appeared in several forms for different members.

  • ***

    "Events have defined the legal actions against me and my friends as a Third Trial of Socrates. The trial in Alexandria might have been written by the same Magi which ordered its agents in the Democratic Party of Athens to arrange the trial of Socrates. The same Magi-force, acting through its pawn, the Emperor Tiberius, used the same tactic against Jesus Christ.
    "This method, of the Trial of Socrates, was adopted by my adversaries, because circumstances have long molded me to walk in imitation of Christ...This presents me now with my Gethsemane, in face of which prospect I conduct myself with the image of Gethsemane clearly before my eyes. If I am killed, I shall die as a political martyr, who has walked to his prescribed doom in the imitation of Christ, as should all Christians in kindred circumstances.
    "This is not a personal posture; it is a deliberate historical act. In such a time as this, one man among men must act precisely so, that his conduct, even unto death, might unleash those forces which must be unleashed if humanity is to escape the total destruction made certain by a continued adherence of "Hermes" masters to their current policy-matrices.
    From the standpoint of "Hermes" masters, I act to unleash the Furies upon them.
    " If I die in the course of the conduct I have imposed upon myself, it shall become the case, for reasons beyond the comprehension of my enemies, that there shall soon ensue that which pagans will regard as the Furies unleashed. In that sense, should they kill me, those pagans will come to imagine that I have reached out from my grave to destroy everything which they represent.
    " We each have but one brief mortal life, which life we gain in total only to the degree, that when the time comes, as it did for Christ, we know how to spend it....My departure unleashes the Furies, which were likely to destroy all nations and populations which survive me.
    Then, there is nothing but those primal conditions, under which conditions nothing but a Ruetlioath sort of anti-Bolshevik "Peoples War" resistance globally, might achieve the
    success which permits civilized life on this planet to be resumed at some later time. If the principals of "Hermes" will not accept the role of what I represent in the present, then I curse them with their imminent future, in which their species will have no posterity, one way or the

  • *

07-08-2006, 12:36 PM
While Lyn was in the slammer, many Leesburg members starting taking his lessons about Christianity seriuously. Now we had many members attending Church in Leesburg and joining the various denominations. The Jewish members converted and now we had a much different group of members from when they joined in the 1970s.
I suspect one reason Lyn despises these "boomers" is because of what Boris Bad wrote. Many of these former members have revealed a lot of what happened in the org and have revealed hoaxes like the Chris White brainwashing story among others.
To show you how insane some people became over the years. Here is an exerpt from Rochelle Ascher about Lincoln at a conference. Look up her name and see how much money she took from our contacts and was convicted for.

  • ***
    There has not been in American history, until Lyndon LaRouche, a man such as Abraham Lincoln. When we look at the situation in the world today, and that in the U.S., the situation Lincoln found himself in was equally, if not more, devastating. Surrounded by traitors on all sides, with a totally bankrupt economy, he acted as no one expected him to act. The economic mobilization carried out during those four years, under conditions of brutal war in which more Americans died than in World Wars I and II combined, is unparalleled in U.S. and, possibly, world history. .................................................. ......................

    The fact that Lyndon LaRouche sits in a federal prison, while the fate of 6 billion souls depends on his freedom and the implementation of his economic policy, defines the task at hand.
    If Lincoln could do it, with what he faced, so, too, can we. We must free LaRouche to bring back to this dying nation and this dying world that for which Lincoln and so many others gave their lives--so that in his words, from the ba............
  • ***
    We went through earlier how the org changed itself to try to make new money among born again Christians by publishing material about Satanism and Rock music and Video games. This farce is what the LYM can look forward to for a loooooong time.
    My next posts will show how long card table shriners can expect to man their tables. Always keep in mind that these are my recollections and other member's memories are always usefull to explain how the org worked on so many layers.

07-16-2006, 07:55 AM
The current LYM should take a close look at the elderly members in their local offices who stumble around and get yelled at by the NC. Each of those remaining dead enders was once a college drop out yute who left everything to "Build the Larouche Movement" , just like the new yutes today.
Lyn and Helga are used to the finer things in life. Helga is is known to have bad taste, but expensive taste. Think of her like a bloated Elvis meets Larouche meets Herman Goering mind meld without the musical talent of Elvis. Don't step on her Jack boots instead of Blue Suede shoes.
Some of you may have thought that the card table shrine deployments were only going to last a few weeks or months while the campaigns are going on. Well, you should have figured out by now that as long as Lyn and Helga have to consume, you have to raise money. The org has a never ending supply of Lyn's delusional enemies and scenarios to keep you hopping for decades.
Today's example is a nice guy named Matt Guice. I spoke to him a few times, decades ago about his story. He joined a local in Canada in the mid 1970's and has been manning a card table shrine ever since. Along the way I think he married another member named Nancy. His real partner was an airport card table shriner named Mike Lepig. Both of them spent years and years together at airports and NYC card table shrines.
30 YEARS LATER, Matt is still trying to build the larouche Movement as this article from Morris County NJ pionts out.

"Matt Guice is an audio technician by profession. But these days, the 55-year-old Ridgefield man is working for Lyndon LaRouche, one of the zanier of the perennial presidential candidates. Guice is making the rounds and camping out for a day outside post offices in Morris County telling all who stop by about the evils of the current presidential administration.
Tuesday found him in Succasunna. His table was flanked by signs that read, "Dump Cheney Now," and another one with the message (above a likeness of the president), "Like a rock, only dumber."
How is his campaign going in Republican Morris County?
"We have some people who are vehemently opposed, but we do have our First Amendment rights," he said."
Matt was very good at raising money, so he stays outside the office while the people who can't raise the money on the phone either clean the office or cook group meals for LYM.
See you in 2036 LYM.


07-17-2006, 02:10 AM
I think this about sums it up. The fine points of philosophy and political twists and turns only obfuscate this central point.


10-08-2006, 12:26 PM
"No one can be manipulated unless they want to be manipulated. "
realme had a good point, but I had to take exception to this. A person who doesn't want to be manipultated can be manipulated if they're isolated from their normal environment, away from everything they know, and surrounded by hundreds of people who have no other goal but to manipulate them. Hence the word "cult".
It is not my fault, and I am not going to be blamed for what they did to me.
(Message edited by erin_b on October 08, 2006)


10-09-2006, 06:48 AM
I agree. Unless one is acquainted with the panoply of mindcontrol techniques the cult leaders (i.e., NC's) deploy and walks in wide-eyed, one can scarcely be held responsible for having sincerity and a zeal to help the world become a better place. It is hard to disentangle truth from falsity under such conditions. Despite increasingly bitter experience, one then projects one's own sincerity onto the cult leaders and cannot imagine that they are any less idealistic. For me, it was only when the pain became greater than my idealism that I left, even though I still believed in the organization 100%, and continued to do so for a long time, feeling that I was the one at fault.


10-16-2006, 02:42 PM
Ok everyone, I was completely wrong about Larouche. This guy actually knows what he's talking about. It seems like you guys don't even try to comprehend what he's saying. And even if you guys disagree with him, what are u doing to solve the worlds problems. It is our Human Moral Right to help Humanity. Anyone who uses excused to sit back all day has something wrong with them.


10-17-2006, 01:13 PM
Believe me, having spent nearly twenty years in the org. I can find very little that my acitivities contributed little if anything (other than what LaRouche used to try and take credit for). And be careful of those who claim to have all the answers. As this post has suggested there are many groups involved in numerous causes, environment, war in Iraq, civil rights, etc. One can work with them without giving one's life over to a demagogue. Any group that asks that you adopt their line on reality hook, line and sinker, is not to be trusted. Those groups usually turn into totalitarian organizations if they ever get anywhere close to power.


10-17-2006, 01:17 PM
Believe me, having spent nearly twenty years in the org. I can find very little that my acitivities contributed little if anything (other than what LaRouche used to try and take credit for). And be careful of those who claim to have all the answers. As this post has suggested there are many groups involved in numerous causes, environment, war in Iraq, civil rights, etc. One can work with them without giving one's life over to a demagogue. Any group that asks that you adopt their line on reality hook, line and sinker, is not to be trusted. Those groups usually turn into totalitarian organizations if they ever get anywhere close to power.


10-19-2006, 02:52 PM
Couldn't have put it better myself:
LaRouche Corrupting Youth...and a Note on Scalia
[Candace de Russy 10/11 12:36 PM]
My longtime comrade-in-arms Winfield Myers, Campus Watch Director, sends a note about the invidious influence of Lyndon LaRouche on young people. One of LaRouche's writers targeted la crčme de la crčme of higher education reformers, as I noted in an earlier post:
This is a hilariously demented essay that, to boot, is so filled with factual error it'll make your head spin. Both of us, and many of those in our circles, are attacked, and I take some pride in being mentioned twice, so nefarious are my works. For crack researchers (researchers on crack?) they somehow overlooked a thing or two—such as our collaboration at Democracy Project, or our control of the world market for precious metals—but not to quibble. By your enemies they shall know you. The pub's title, Executive Intelligence Review, is in such hands a list of falsehoods.
LaRouche is a head case, of course, and an ex-con, but the damage he does to the wayward youth in his tow is no joking matter. I attended Supreme Court Justice Anthony Scalia's talk at AEI last winter when a carload of LaRouchies disrupted it repeatedly. Their demeanor wasn't simply campus-left boorish, but more on the order of brainwashed cultist. Scalia was unfailingly polite—much more so than most of us would be under such circumstances—but perhaps he knew they were more to be pitied than eviscerated.
Not so the old man, however.


10-19-2006, 04:17 PM
If anyone is following the articles in the EIR about the Youth Movement, it is blatantly noticable that the youth are being led down a blind alley.


10-19-2006, 04:21 PM
If anyone is following the articles in the EIR about the Youth Movement, it is blatantly noticable that the youth are being led down a blind alley.


10-20-2006, 12:54 PM
An unintentional admission in a recent tirade by LaRouche helps provide circumstantial evidence to establish just how sick this individual is, and why he fashioned a cult about himself. With regard to a board game he writes:
My notorious lack of competitive spirit, then as now, meant that I was never the best across the board ...
Most who lack such spirit find quiet ways in which to wile away their days - but not this guy. He cannot bear the thought that there are many people much smarter, better educated, more successful, braver, more heroic, kinder, far more saintly than he. So he takes a handful of broken people and pounds them into the slavishly adoring acolytes he needs to feel good about his notoriously noncompetitive self. But in his last days, devotion appears not good enough, so he is molding these newest yutes into fanatical shocktroops not only against society but against the old guard in his own cult in a manner reminiscent of Napoleon in <u>Animal Farm</u>.
He takes first prize in the noncompetitive creep department, cult-leader division, at any rate.
P.S. And Lyn, you were not successful simply because you were not smart enough, not because of any alleged character defect, no matter how humbly confessed.
(Message edited by sancho on October 20, 2006)


10-20-2006, 05:00 PM
Well, I'd say that there's nothing competition can accomplish that cooperation can't do better.


10-20-2006, 05:29 PM
I have to be brief now since the kids have projects due.But, here is another example of why Lyn is committed to hating every thing and every person he meets to prove his mental superiority.
Does the LYM know that in 1971 when the LC was not quite a cult, Lyn proclaimed himself as the smartest Marxist in the world. He also claimed that he understood economics better than anyone else and debated local college professors in class rooms.
One you may have never hear about was a student class room panel on economics at Columbia University in 1971 where Lyn proclaimed the end of capitalism and the rise of Marxist economics.
Well, one of the participants was named Edmund Phelps.
Fast forward 35 years and Lyn is a convicted tax fraud, swindler, a "small time Hitler" (proven in court) white collar criminal and leader of a self named cult of worshipers.
Edmund Phelps just won the 2006 Nobel Prize for economics yutes.
It seems that everyone who stays with Larouche collapses while those who ran away seem to do very well in life.


10-22-2006, 04:47 AM
The recent posts of Sancho are from the LarouchePAC web site. This begs for a rather intensive look as it will clearly demonstrate how the "Larouche Method" works in theory and practice.
Since this type of analyis and instant viewing was not possible in the days of old, I figure what better way than to take advantage of computer web researching by college kids than to give them more reasons to both laugh and then run away from the cult's yutes.
Over the next few weeks we can have a ball doing this. Key points to understand is this:
Lyn has a basic bag of tricks to use on new yutes. What you will see is that the essence is the same and has been the same for 4 decades.
The target audience has returned to the early days of the org with card table shrines at college campuses instead of factory plant gates.
Just like crooked bookeepers and CEOs, you get rid of the old debt and worn out, broken down resources (old members) and replace it with new blood to create the illusion that you are growing.
Unlike a mid 40 year old Lyn 2ho starts to get increasingly bizarre and delusional, there is nothing left to salvage. The need to create a true perpetual cult of sycophantic worshipers before death overides any concern over the last remaining deadenders in Leesburg.
In the end, the yutes will trust Lyn and Lyn will have them evolve into a trust for Helga.


10-23-2006, 03:37 AM
For the benefit of the LYM yutes, let me explain what you are going through and how you got there.
Around the US the LYM have been copying various cults one finds on college campuses. Go to any campus for the past 40 years and you will find an endless supply of sects which prosletyze and try to recruit people.
You are very unlikely to recruit someone at an office park or plant gate, you call that strata for cash. In a a demented version of the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, your card table shrines have popped up on several college campuses.
As the LYM go on campus, a few things happen. After becoming excited about the anti war/Bush pitch, the card table shriner starts talking in conspiracy tongues. The idea is that you see what the person is intersted in and pull a conspiracy from your hat. The problem is that unlike several years ago, kids, parents and other interested parties can research Larouche and find out why no one seems to know anything about Jeremiah Duggan, tax fruad, anti semitism, Nazi rocket scientists, promissory note scams and jail time.
The poor Yutes have no idea of Puerto Rican frogmen emerging from the Hudson river to assasinate Lyn , Mop Up violence and our job as dirty tricksters for the Reagan people.
Around the country at these campuses, people have discovered this site as well as along with endless articles about the cult.
Several parents have become concerned that they are sending money to support their kids and find out that they are subsidizing a lunatic run cult. The friends of several students who drop out of school find their classmates have become card table shriners who have that glassy eyed look to them.
In response, a few articles have appeared in the US on college papers. In addition, endless blogs and emails have been sent by people who have come in contact with the cult.
This is on top of what happens in Europe where it seems that half of the org has left because they suspect something is not right in the Duggan case. Calls from lawyers can do that to you I guess.
I will post some of these articles for you to read. Now how does Larouche methodolgy work you ask?
Well, the first thing is to deny reality and make sure that the yutes do not notice that they are being called cultic loonies around the globe.
You have to make sure that a few things happen.
Create another massive conspiracy against Larouche, and thereby against you for being the only people who are saving humanity. Make sure that the circle of conspiracy include your PRESENT organising enemies. Forgot about all of the delusional enemies list in Lyn's mind. 40 years of enemies no longer exist, this list is to make the yutes imagine that their every movement is being closely mathced by a counter move from the enemy.
In this case ,Dick Cheney's wife seems to fit as poor Dick Cheney has been tapped out. We learned that it was better to have an expanded enemies list for organising. "The Rockefellers" became Nelson and David, depending on whom you were talking to. Later it became Chase Manhattan Bank and then banks morphed into London banks as Jews grew into the conspiracy.


10-23-2006, 03:39 AM
For the benefit of the LYM yutes, let me explain what you are going through and how you got there.
Around the US the LYM have been copying various cults one finds on college campuses. Go to any campus for the past 40 years and you will find an endless supply of sects which prosletyze and try to recruit people.
You are very unlikely to recruit someone at an office park or plant gate, you call that strata for cash. In a a demented version of the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, your card table shrines have popped up on several college campuses.
As the LYM go on campus, a few things happen. After becoming excited about the anti war/Bush pitch, the card table shriner starts talking in conspiracy tongues. The idea is that you see what the person is intersted in and pull a conspiracy from your hat. The problem is that unlike several years ago, kids, parents and other interested parties can research Larouche and find out why no one seems to know anything about Jeremiah Duggan, tax fruad, anti semitism, Nazi rocket scientists, promissory note scams and jail time.
The poor Yutes have no idea of Puerto Rican frogmen emerging from the Hudson river to assasinate Lyn , Mop Up violence and our job as dirty tricksters for the Reagan people.
Around the country at these campuses, people have discovered this site as well as along with endless articles about the cult.
Several parents have become concerned that they are sending money to support their kids and find out that they are subsidizing a lunatic run cult. The friends of several students who drop out of school find their classmates have become card table shriners who have that glassy eyed look to them.
In response, a few articles have appeared in the US on college papers. In addition, endless blogs and emails have been sent by people who have come in contact with the cult.
This is on top of what happens in Europe where it seems that half of the org has left because they suspect something is not right in the Duggan case. Calls from lawyers can do that to you I guess.
I will post some of these articles for you to read. Now how does Larouche methodolgy work you ask?
Well, the first thing is to deny reality and make sure that the yutes do not notice that they are being called cultic loonies around the globe.
You have to make sure that a few things happen.
Create another massive conspiracy against Larouche, and thereby against you for being the only people who are saving humanity. Make sure that the circle of conspiracy include your PRESENT organising enemies. Forgot about all of the delusional enemies list in Lyn's mind. 40 years of enemies no longer exist, this list is to make the yutes imagine that their every movement is being closely mathced by a counter move from the enemy.
In this case ,Dick Cheney's wife seems to fit as poor Dick Cheney has been tapped out. We learned that it was better to have an expanded enemies list for organising. "The Rockefellers" became Nelson and David, depending on whom you were talking to. Later it became Chase Manhattan Bank and then banks morphed into London banks as Jews grew into the conspiracy.


10-23-2006, 03:50 AM
Next you have you part time school teachers/EIR Investigative teams go through every membership list, board of directors, contributor and then link everyone to the main plot which prove the plot.
Next, you have to create an emergency mobilization to stop whatever seems to fit the day's fundraising. Rememebr, when we call you, your enemy is our enemy. So even if you do not like us, we portray ourselves as the only people who can stop YOUR enemy.
I should add another item to this as well after reviewing the new LPAC site.
ALWAYS HAVE AND END OF THE WORLD SCENARIO to keep the yutes hopping, jumping and raising money.
The Larouche classics will usually be the "End of the Economic System as we know it". Or, the old "Nuclear war is mere minutes away" routine.
Now we will see some of the articles that have caused the "Larouche Method" to start spinning yutes in circles.
Here is one of the numerous articles about the LYM cult . This one is from Boston

  • Lyndon Who?
    A look at the LaRouche Youth Movement and the enigmatic man behind the scenes
    Philip Goldstein
    Issue date: 10/4/06 Section: Spotlight

    Media Credit: Bob Henne
    A Lyndon LaRouche supporter speaks to School of Education junior Madelyn Kanter in front of Marsh Plaza Monday.

    Walking down Commonwealth Avenue past Marsh Plaza or Warren Towers, it's hard to miss the political organizers holding signs and handing out literature to passersby.
    They are often the supporters of a man named Lyndon LaRouche, and despite their presence at Boston University and on other college campuses as part of the LaRouche Youth Movement, many students remain unaware of who LaRouche is and what he stands for.
    His supporters describe him as a visionary leader whose movement seeks to liberate minds from the oppressive constraints of society. Much of LaRouche's current literature fiercely opposes the Bush administration.
    His opponents denounce him as a cult leader and conspiracy theorist with strongly anti-Semitic tendencies.
    After decades of political involvemen t, LaRouche, now 84 years old, remains a figure shrouded in mystery, much like the organization he created and continues to lead.


    The LaRouche movement casts its leader as an influential political and economic thinker with a tremendous gift for forecasting world crises.
    The website of the LaRouche Political Action Committee claims that LaRouche ranks "among the most controversial international political figures of his time," and that his ability as a forecaster "has placed him at the center of the presently erupting, global systemic crisis of the world's economy."
    According to the website, LaRouche was born in 1922 in Rochester, NH. He attended Northeastern University in the 1940s and served in the military in Asia before returning to the United States to begin his political work. LaRouche's many campaigns for president over the past three decades have been well documented.
    LaRouche's latest press release, dated Sept. 30, describes him as a "leading Democrat" and states the following about the United States' intentions in Iran:
    "At the present moment, the Anglo-American interest expressed in part by Vice-President Cheney and his wife's long-standing connections to British intelligence circles associated with the like [sic] of British Baroness Liz Symons, is committed to either a medium-term (e.g., February 2007) or an earlier, mid-October 2006 heavy aerial assault on Iran"

10-23-2006, 03:57 AM
At the heart of the LaRouche movement today are the student activists, though it is uncertain how many members belong to the LaRouche Youth Movement, which began in 1999.
Barbara Boyd, treasurer of the LaRouche Political Action Committee, said students are attracted to the LYM because of its unique approach to education.
"The growing interest of college students to the LaRouche Youth Movement stems from the LYM's focus on a classical educational program that centers on recreating the original discoveries in science and art from the original sources, rather than the conventional classroom approach of merely learning to repeat what is reported in secondary text book sources," Boyd said in an email.
Boyd said the typical classroom approach leads to "sophistry" among students and does not allow them to seek the truth.
"These trends in sophistry are a degeneration from the higher levels of education typical of universities several generations ago, which itself fell short of the levels of classical self-education which produced great scientists from Kepler to Einstein," she continued. "If the United States is going to reverse the current collapse of its intellectual capabilities, a return to this classical form of education is necessary."
Boyd declined to comment on specific aspects of the LYM's recruiting practices and the connection between the LYM and the main LaRouche PAC.
"The mechanics of how people get in contact or maintain contact with the LaRouche Youth Movement are pretty obvious and uninteresting - telephones, e-mails, etc.," she said.
Members of the LYM interviewed for this article said they became involved because they were attracted to what LaRouche had to say.
Marcus Gilmore, 23, who was distributing LaRouche literature outside Warren Towers last week, said he joined the LaRouche movement in June 2005.
Gilmore first became interested in LaRouche when he saw the activists out on the streets in Boston, especially during the wintertime.
"I really wanted to figure out what the hell was going on," he said.
Gilmore's goal with the LYM is to create leaders who can change the direction of the country's politics, he said.
"People are just so existential. They don't really care what happens in politics," he explained. "We're trying to create some leadership, particularly in our generation ? Are we going to make America worse, or are we going to try to improve the direction that we're headed in right now?"


Many experts believe the LaRouche movement displays the traditional structure and methodology of a cult.
Steve Hassan, director of the Somerville-based Freedom of Mind Center, said he thinks the movement is a cult because it is an "authoritarian, pyramid-structure group, with a charismatic figure at the top who has all the answers [and] dictatorial control."
Hassan said the LaRouche movement follows what he calls the "BITE" model of mi nd control, standing for behavior, information, thought and emotion.
"They are not allowed to think negative thoughts about LaRouche; that's behavior," he said. "They're not allowed to talk to ex-members or critics; that's information. You pretty much go through the BITE model and you see that it fits."


10-23-2006, 04:01 AM
Priscilla Coates, a former director of the Cult Awareness Network who has dealt extensively with LaRouche, also said the movement fits the mold of a cult.
"Cult-like groups in my experience need the fear of the outside world to keep their members within the fold," she said. "It's that kind of a fear that these groups seem to instill in people, so that they can twist whatever the outside world says, and say, 'See? I told you.'"
She noted that cults demand of their volunteers more than they can reasonably provide.
"Sleep deprivation is one of the hallmarks of cult-like existence," she said. "There's always a crucial, crucial deadline ? and the LaRou chies seem to do that with getting out their newspaper articles."
Rick Ross, founder and executive director of the Rick A. Ross Institute, an educational nonprofit on controversial groups, agreed with this assessment of the movement.
"Other than sleeping, they spend 24/7 with the organization," Ross said. "And in a situation like that, how can you get another perspective? You can't ? Everyone you talk to, you communicate with, is another follower of LaRouche."
In response, Boyd said the "lying" cult accusations are "promoted by LaRouche's political enemies, solely in order to scare people ... LaRouche's opponents would prefer students adhere to the types of 'thought-control' prevailing in most university education, which emphasizes stating what is popular rather than what is true."
A March 2002 press release by the LaRouche presidential campaign made similar counter-accusations.
"[Opponents] say things like LaRouche is a leader of a cult, or that he is anti-Semitic, or some other vile epithet. Invariably, those repeating these lies, when challenged, can never back up what they say."


According to Dean of Students Kenneth Elmore, only groups approved by BU are allowed to solicit students on Marsh Plaza, but any group, including the LaRouche supporters, can solicit on the public sidewalk between the plaza and Comm. Ave.
Elmore said political discourse -- especially in public and in a university setting -- is essential, but should be conducted civilly, and should not impede students trying to go about their business.
"I think students have been very good in distinguishing the ideas from the tactics [with which they are approached by LaRouche volunteers]," Elmore said.
Elmore advised students to make sure they understand the background of any organization they come across.
"With any organization you would join, even a student group, do your homework," he said. "Try and find out what they're all ab out, what their values are, to try and see if those values mesh with what your personal values might be."


10-23-2006, 04:06 AM
Randy Cohen, a senior in the College of Arts and Sciences, said he started a Facebook group entitled "Students For LaRouche To Leave Us Alone" because LaRouche supporters were becoming too much of an annoyance.
"They're just rude," he said. "They try to get up in my face. They say things like, 'Don't you want to get a dick and a bush out of office?' And it's just not cool. I just want to get to class. I don't really care."
Jay Penman, a CAS junior, said he tries to beware of the LaRouche supporters when he sees them on Comm. Ave.
"I think it's very cult-like, and I'm a little afraid of the implications of that," he said. "Though I feel they do have the right to hand out their literature on campus, I do think that seemingly liberal freshmen need to be aware that that's probably not something they want to get involved in."


In addition to the cult accusations, critics of LaRouche have also focused on what t hey see as questionable aspects of his past.
In 1988 LaRouche was found guilty of conspiracy, mail fraud and tax code violations. He was sentenced to 15 years in prison, but was released in 1994 on parole.
Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at the Political Research Associates think tank who has covered LaRouche for thirty years, said he interviewed "scores of people who ? told the same stories over and over again about a systematic fundraising mechanism that clearly was violating the law," he said.
Dennis King, who has written a biography of LaRouche, said after LaRouche was released from prison, it seemed his movement was demoralized. But with a loyal group of followers, LaRouche rebuilt his organization and decided to create an instrument to continue his legacy after he died.
"[LaRouche decided] the way to keep his movement going and keep his name out there after he dies, is to go back to his roots, the roots of his movement in the radical campus movement in the late 1960s," King said.
King called the LYM's current recruitment drive "quite successful," but said it is uncertain whether this new LaRouche boom will last.
"When LaRouche does this, it's not clear he's going to be able to keep them like he's done with his dead-enders -- the people that have been with him for 30 years," King said. "So I don't know how it's going to work out."
But according to Boyd, neither of these critics can be trusted. In her words, both Berlet and King are "political hacks ... who have made careers of defaming LaRouche."
Staff writer Andrew Shapira contributed reporting for this story


10-23-2006, 05:40 AM
"Rememebr [sic], when we call you, your enemy is our enemy. So even if you do not like us, we portray ourselves as the only people who can stop YOUR enemy."
This is very insightful - and true. It is on this single basis that most of the big money has come the way of Fearless Leader. Without this tactic, it's likely the cult would still be loitering unshaven and unkempt in Manhattan's Garment District.
Yutes, beware!


10-23-2006, 02:50 PM
Next we move to California for another article about the LYM cult.
I am posting the full articles here instead of URLs. This forum is an invaluable tool in doing research and learning about the cult and how the Bizarro world of Larouche works. The easier it is to access this info, the better it is for the yutes.
Expose:The Cult of Lyn LaRouche
By Garin Hovannisian
C.J. was a changed man. His curly, blonde hair snaked into an anarchic afro. His face was unshaven. His shirt, faded and bleached, was half-tucked into oversized jeans. I hadn't seen C.J. in two years. Back in high school, he was a real character—a no-nonsense, call-it-like-it-is skeptic, cynic, libertine, jokester, joke, poet, soccer star, recluse, opinion-maker—an alpha to the alphas, yet entirely content in his own thoughts, a bully to (and of) no one. His dream, he used to say, was to live in isolation on a twenty-acre plot of Midwestern forestry—just him and his gun, untouched b y man or government. I expected never to see him again. But in April 2005, on the student thoroughfare of the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA)—a menagerie of hyperactive campus propagandists—the familiar creature was hard to miss.
A few months before at his city college, C.J. had been approached by a few young activists who pressed him to attend one of their weekend retreats—a "cadre school," they called it. Grudgingly, C.J. decided to go. When he returned, he abandoned his school, his home, his friends, his personality, his humor, and every vestige of his past. He moved into a veritable commune as a convert to the mission, army, and cult of Lyndon LaRouche. Defender. Janitor. Distributor. Point-man. Middleman. Yes man. C.J. was doing it all.
On Bruin Walk, looking into my eyes for the first time since high school, he was already recruiting. He handed me a pamphlet. "You know about LaRouche?" he asked, soaring th rough the awkwardness without the slightest hesitation or embarrassment. I nodded, but I could not pay attention to his words. My mind was fumbling with questions. What had turned the old recluse into a pamphleteer and peddler? Was it a spiritual enlightenment that he was eager to find? Was C.J. playing a sinister practical joke that he, if anyone, could pull off? Or was he…brainwashed? In search of answers, I enlisted in the LaRouche Youth Movement (LYM).
On Wednesday, April 27, I attended my first meeting. The Los Angeles headquarters of LYM are contained in a small, decrepit two-story house in Eagle Rock, California. Its rooms are packed with LaRouche literature, videos, posters, campaign material, and junk food. The largest is the telephone room, where volunteers work the lines with potential recruits. It comes eerily close to a telemarketing station, a boiler room filled with sleazy hacks selling faux-politique—a pseudo- intellectualized statism—with the requisite inflection and lure. Except it's not old people being gypped (though LaRouche sat in jail for five years for fraud and extortion). It's meaning-thirsty college kids.


10-23-2006, 02:55 PM
I maneuvered into the library and examined the collection, in my habit of judging a man by his books. Plato. Kepler. Gauss. Leibniz. Bach. Anderson. Poe. Schiller. And of course, LaRouche. A few Germans I hadn't heard of, sure, but this was basically it. Excepting LaRouche webcasts, lectures from his representatives, and LaRouche's own books and articles, this is LYM's intellectual kingdom. Aristotle is banned. The Western Canon has vanished, without fingerprints. And don't bother with Sir Isaac Newton, a fraud, plagiarist, and conniver. Only "pro-mankind" intellectuals make it into the library. LaRouche soberly asserts in an article, "Galileo, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, the notorious Adam Smith, and the famous Rene Descartes, were, like Bertrand Russell and his devotees, systematically insane, in the strictest formal use of the term insane." Evil. Insane. Anti-mankind.
I did not get this "mankind" thing. One of the original LYM members named Bo explained that science, economics, politics, culture, and music are all measurable by a "mankind" yardstick. Pro-mankind: Plato, LaRouche, and Bach. Anti-mankind: Aristotle, Cheney, and Rachmaninoff. "But how can I listen to a piece of music and be able to tell if it's pro-mankind or not?" I asked naively. Bo, who is more comfortable in belief than in argument, slowly replied: "It just comes with the knowledge. Once you understand the politics and the economics and stuff, it'll all fall into place."
Sensing my curiosity, Bo invited me to a LYM cadre school the following weekend. That's where C.J. had been converted. That's where I would learn why.
If I return a robot, I told a close friend, you have the right to have me committed. With that, I set off with my SUV to the outskirts of mountainous Santa Barbara, California. Off the central roadway, one mile past Paradise Road, and another mile off-road forging rivers and zigzagging through the woods—the Oregon Trail experience—I realized that there might not be a chance to turn back.
My grisly imagination having refined horrific anecdotes of brainwashing and murder into half-expectations, I pulled into the campground and moved my bags to the guys' cabin. C.J. showed me to the main cabin, where nearly fifty young recruiters (like C.J.) and new recruits (ostensibly like me) had already assembled.
Already in the opening address, the world conspiracy blueprints of Lyndon LaRouche were unveiled. "The Family, or The Foundation, is an organization of politicos that pick world statesmen," said a pretty woman in her early 20s. "It is a real organizatio n that is really involved in US policy-making." This is pure LaRouche-talk. The urgency of LYM's mission is justified by these underground, hereditary, secret-hand-shake societies that debase what LaRouche terms very loosely "the American System." It's a web of evil people, most prominently George Schultz, who "single-handedly chose Bush as president, Arnold as governor, and Condi Rice as protégé." A later speaker would declare that the Tavistock Institute, a British psychotherapy clinic, "controls and manipulates major media through brainwashing. This isn't even debatable. It's been proven." These are the puppeteers of the modern world.
But forget the world for now, because the establishments have schemed for decades to destroy LaRouche himself, having found their one-and-only formidable opponent. In the eyes of his followers, Lyn is an international superstar—the orthodoxy's most vivid nightmare and the truth's final promise of fruition. Indeed, the L aRouche history, as any of his followers will proudly tell you, is replete with CIA-brainwashed assassins, KGB snipers, and world bank hit squads all targeting their leader.


10-23-2006, 03:00 PM
At night, I jumped among the "social groups," hunting desperately for (I frustrate my ego in saying) a casual conversation. But among the several dozen followers, none exists. They never see movies. Beyond a narrow slice of classical music, they don't listen. They don't tell jokes and they are irritated when they hear one. They don't have hobbies. C.J. told me not to bother scavenging for sex. Every pursuit, aspiration, passion, emotion, thought, longing, and joy revolves necessarily around the central personality, "the founder," "the genius among geniuses," the "leading prophetic figure of modern history"—Lyn. This is not some sort of poetic exaggeration. It's their way of life. You eavesdrop on a conversation between any of these people at any time of d ay, and it's always about the same stuff: constructive geometry, socialistic economic policy, inherently good classical music, Plato, Kepler, Gauss, LaRouche, LaRouche, LaRouche!
They seem to be normal teenagers and they span the racial, sexual, socioeconomic spectra. But they connect in a common anticipation of historic catastrophe and they survive on the lone faith of the corrective and redemptive genius of their movement. And that's the cult, if you've been searching for it and if you want to call it that. There's no Kool-Aid, no weird alphabet, no cryptic Bible Code. It's a cult, literally, of personality: the intellectual, world-changing genius.
Yet despite suspicions to the contrary, no believer is as confident in his own genius (which is, at best, a potentiality) as he is in the collective genius of his movement. Behind C.J.'s rugged certainties rests a spirit that is crippled and an ego that requires constant attentio n—not because it feels it deserves it, but because it cannot survive without it. Indeed, C.J.'s family background, which is stained by psychological and ultimately physical abandonment, not only discourages self-esteem, but really forbids it. It is peculiar, then, that it was precisely at the pinnacle of C.J.'s family crisis and disillusionment—in the dark age of his self-esteem—that he joined a movement that called him a genius.
To modern researchers of self-esteem and mass movements, however, the fact is not peculiar at all. Eric Hoffer has written, "The less justified a man is in claiming excellence for his own self, the more ready he is to claim all excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or his holy cause." In the holiness of his cause, C.J. is more sure—and this, again, I write with no poetics—than he is in his own goodness. His confidence in his own genius (and, hence, the desertion of the fear that he is not) depends, first and only, on the acceptance of the movement.


10-23-2006, 03:05 PM
Hence, no movies, jokes, creative talent, personality—the true believers have no character whatsoever. It is impossible, save upon their mastery of the clichés of the cause, to differentiate them. There is no identity or knowledge, in any real sense, detached from the group. The concepts of "knowaspheres" and "musical dissonance" that supposedly divide good music from bad are totally lost on C.J. But not for a moment does he doubt their reality. He will blame his own intellectual immaturity every time, even if it conflicts with the reality he sees.
One is all. And, of course, all is one in Lyndon LaRouche, polymath extraordinaire.
LaRouche, who calls himself "the leading economist of [the 20th] century," proposes an accentuated statism, and it's accepted as high novelty. The prophet in the wilderness yells apocalypse, and his followers panic. The detective in Lyn f inds networks of secrecy, and C.J. is on a personal mission to sabotage them. The genius mathematician rejects Newton's calculus and his students immediately discard modern math. The music theorist writes, "The Beatles had no genuine musical talent, but were a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division (Tavistock) specifications, and promoted in Britain by agencies which are controlled by British intelligence," and the movement learns to recite it.
By the cadre school's second day, nauseous from the adoration (which at least matches the average church-goer's piety), drained of will power, and dreadfully tired, I stood on the brink of insanity. Echoes of the same themes and people bounced in my brain. Knowasphere. Leibniz. Plato. Beethoven. Constructive geometry. Schumann. Gauss. Lyn. LaRouche. Lyn. I guess this was that moment in which so many had beheld their epiphany. This was when, tired but finally enlightened, I was supposed to fall on my knees and dedicate my life to the whims and wishes of a man. But for me, it was more torture than epiphany. I simply could not survive through the weekend. I said goodbye to C.J., gathered my bags, and got into the car. A mile through thick forests, several miles past Paradise Road, and now far, far away from this fantastic place of ideas and heroes and dreams, brewing in a cabin by a stream. It was as if it was all fiction. I was absolutely in a daze. And not for a couple of weeks did I actually escape the awful aftershocks, the lingering hangover of the LaRouche Youth Movement.
Since then, a mutual friend of C.J. and mine has asked C.J. if he would ever consider leaving the group for a few hours to have lunch with us. He has never been able to say yes. He's too deep in his new reality. He is there with Lincoln, Plato, Jean d'Arc, LaRouche—the handful of genius individuals who have changed the world. He is there with three hundred young intellectuals who, if we are to believe them, will stage the decisive revolution of our millennium.
The movement is easy to satirize, discredit, and render insane. But the quiet existentialist in all of us finds herself faintly envious. For in all their delusions, LaRouche's followers have on earth a cosmic certainty and security that we might only wish to achieve in paradise. It is a paradise, alas, that almost inevitably crashes. When it does for C.J., one psychological breakdown after another, he might be a free man again—but never, I fear, the endearing oddball of our youths.
Names have been changed to protect the LYM members and, more probably, the author. E-mail Garin at


10-23-2006, 04:10 PM
I read this and I note the absence of Beltran and his drama workshops. I wonder if he is being used as a carrot to keep the yutes in line? He certainly talks as if he believes in LHL. I would love to know whether he has participated in one of these sessions.


10-24-2006, 02:57 PM
What I don't understand is all you guys do is babble on and on about nonsense. Did you guys know that we don't have habeus corpus anymore, meaning any american Citizen can get arrested without warrant, no right to an attorney, and no bail. Whether you like larouche or not the real problem is that there are more people dieing in every 5 year span in Africa than the Holocaust. These policies are directed directly from politicians such as Kissinger and Shultz. You don't have to read an EIR to know this stuff just look up their speeches. Lets take Brooks for example, This guy gave a speech at UCLA, calling for the destruction of the "Islam Race", woman, children, everyone. Even Bill Oreilly Called this guy a Nazi. I said those pathetic completely irrational remarks about Larouche and the movement because I wanted to hide from what was realy going on. The fact of the Matter is the whole world is falling apart, Morally, Economically, culturally and you guys aren't doing anything, and Larouche and the Movement are the only group that even know what a Universal phisical principal is. You guys fail to realise that there is truth. It isn't larouche telling us that the world is falling apart. It is the natural laws of the Universe. I hope one day you guys will wake up.


10-24-2006, 03:42 PM
Entirely illogical.
(1) Just because Kissinger et al. are evil does not make a cult leader viable because he happens to attack them in publications few if any read. You yourself acknowledge one does not need EIR to know these things.
(2) The whole world is always falling apart because we human beings are always imperfect when we are not predominantly evil, which some of us (such as LaRouche) in fact are. Throwing one's lot in with a cult of personality around an alcoholic madman is not for one moment going to stay the apocalypse.
(3) You do not know those of us who attack LaRouche at all so are in no position to state that we do nothing. Should I conclude from the fact that you took the time to post here that you do nothing worthwhile?
(4) What precisely is a "Universal phisical [sic] principal [sic]"? Please enlighten us sleepwalkers.


10-24-2006, 04:18 PM
jmp87, there are hundreds of ways in which people get things done without being in a cult. The problem for me is not that yutes want to do something, but they are in a cult which pays lip service to this while a whole other world of Larouche goes around them.
In Leesburg reside hundreds of Larouche deadenders who gave thirty years of their lives to this madman and have bupkis.
On the other hand there are hundreds of ex memebrs who came to their senses , left the cult and have moved on to work think tanks, write real laws which get debated and passed by lawmakers.
There are several journalists who do excellent reporting for international and domestic publications.
If you like space, read what I have reported about Bob Zubrin and his org called "The Mars SOciety". Zubrin has helped lawmakers draft legislation for space exploration. He has been awarded for his efforts by the White House in ceremonies honoring talented Americans.
A few other memmbers are high execs in International Banks which actually fund development projects in the developing world.
Other people run economic think tanks and have published books, reports, teach and are consulted about policy by other think tanks and both political parties.
A few ex members are big shots in US Trade Unions as well. They are not manning a card table shrine with some burnt out deadender wathcing over them, but handle multi million dollar budgets and take care of millions of employees.
Your perspective is as a cult member. Your identity is based on larouche and the org defining every minute of every day for you.
We have woken up which is why all of us actually have something to do and get things done. If you go back in the archives here you can find an exchange I ad with a LYM member in LA named Ed Park.
This was last year around June I think. Ed was running his mouth about what I am doing for humanity. I hgave him what I called My "Moral Resume" and offered to match that with anyone on the org. The only thing Ed can offer me is the equivalent of your "Universal Physical Principal". I was in the org long enough to have a listy of catch phrases from Lyn that is virtually endless and can put you to shame.


10-24-2006, 04:26 PM
You are merely doing the same posing that we did in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The formula is the same and I probably said the same thing you are saying now to my college friends in 1976 when I dropped out of school.
I was really looking forward to Ed Park returning to the LYM forum and having him explain things to me. Poor Ed was on one hand telling me that I was fabricating the whole Chris White Brainwashing story and the assasinating Hudson river Frogmen when I pointed out that the LYM web site has the PDFs written by Lyn about this!!!!
Ed did not fare too well in this as he never came back. I was later emailed by some LA members that Phil and Harley were very angry at Ed for running the LYM forums. They threw Ed out of the comfy office and sent his butt to do walking tours in LA. According to one person , Ed was sent to do a Compton walking tour and was viciously beaten at one house. He was never the same after that and I have no idea if he does anything anymore.
You will not see and open LYM forum as two were shut down because ex members have pointed out the many crimes and lunacy of the Lyn and the cult.
The only thing where the cult really does something is as a dirty trick tactic for people. We did plenty of that for the Republicans against Democrats when I was in. We worked behind the scenes in spreading lies and gossip for Dems against other Dems.
Today you can hold your head up high that your money and your energy are used to spread more anti semitic lunacy in the Muslim world via Lyn's speaking before the notorious Zayed Center.
The road of Lyn is covered with the remains of broken bodies and broke people. Most of you were not even born when we began to scam credit cards and loot the elderly with worthless promisorry notes. No mater what you may think today jmp87, you can be erased by the org in a split second and everything you think you did is nothing.
This circus has been going on for 4 decades. there is nothing new here. Your briefings are exactly the same as mine. Lyn's speeches to the LYM are duplicates of ecery other speech at a conference before new recruits.
My next prediction for you is that you will be soon given pretyt steep quotas to save humanity. What Lyn will do is what he told the org back in the early 1970's. "This is not a debating society" he sent the org to bust the heads of the left and then to start raising big money.
Last night I saw a person on CNN talk about the renewed interest in nuclear power. You know that the LYM will shortly be wearing shiny new sprt coats and restarting 21st Century at Airport card table shrines.
Your mobilizations are the same. Either the economy is going to collaps or Nuclear War is going to break out. In a close election where someone wins by a percentage point, Lyn will tell you that he was the deciding factor. If the person loses it was because they did not take his advice. If Lyn gets few votes it is becasue of vote fraud, not that he is a raving lunatic to most voters.
Lyn has your number and will play you like a yo yo son. A card table shrine awaits you


10-25-2006, 03:45 AM
The Nigerian email scams are pretty much what jmp87 is facing today. Almost everyone who gets an Email from NIgeria knwos it is a scam. There are occasonal stories about it in the media. However, a few people REALLY, REALLY want to believe that it is true.
Years ago a friends room mate had an exchange with a Nigerian "banker" fleeing the country. We told him over and over it was a scam. He had tens of emails with official letters and stamps and sent them a few K.
There are almost 2 K of posts here covering 40 years of the org. We are not making copies of copies of reports. We did these things to people like jmp87. After his bank account is gone, we have him borrow money for us. If he joins, fine, he can recruit and make money for us. IF not, our boiler room team will boil him.
Now we take the Larouche Warped tour to DC.
LaRouche PAC Crosses Healy Gates
Supporters of Perennial Candidate Violate Rules, Leave Pamphlets
By Michele Hong
Special to The Hoya
Friday, October 20, 2006
In violation of university regulations, supporters of the left-wing political figure Lyndon LaRouche entered campus on Wednesday and distributed pamphlets advertising their cause.
Although volunteers normally set up a table across the street from Healy Gates to hand out information to passersby, students found copies of LaRouche's most recent position pamphlet in ICC and White Gravenor classrooms in the morning.
"LaRouche pamphlets were strewn across the floor — obviously, students had pushed them off their desks instead of placing them in a trash can," Zach Ralston (COL '09) said about his English class in ICC.
Daniel Rendleman (COL '09) said that he found LaRouche pamphlets on desks in his linear algebra class in White Gravenor.
Georgetown's Speech and Expression Policy states that only members of the Georgetown University academic community may distribute handbills or pamphlets on campus. Additionally, no handbills or pamphlets may be distributed in classrooms.
University spokesman Erik Smulson said that the university "is pretty clear on this issue."
Department of Public Safety Director Darryl Harrison said the department has not received any recent complaints concerning on-campus encounters with members of the LaRouche Political Action Committee, although there have been calls reporting the PAC on campus in the past.
"I can't recall any circumstance involving them that has led to any incidents," Harrison said. "Our response to unauthorized solicitation is consistent — the solicitors are escorted off campus."
Martha Swanson, director of Student Programs, said that although she was not aware of Wednesday's on-campus brochure distribution, she recalled LaRouche followers stationing themselves on Red Square in recent years.
"Even though Georgetown is an open campus, people are not allowed to come in and hand things out without a sponsor, and definitely not people running for office," Swanson said.
The pamphlet states that the current Bush administration is making an effort to prevent college-age citizens from voting in the upcoming November elections, comparing Republican administrators' actions to Joseph Goebbel's brainwashing of the Nazi party during World War II.
A member of the Worldwide LaRouche Youth Movement declined to comment on the pamphlet distribution.
According to the GU College Democrats President Liz Fossett (COL '08), LaRouche's campaign is not connected to the club. "We have typically no contact with those people, but they are very excited about something," Fossett said.


10-25-2006, 02:56 PM
Just going to Youtube and seeing the LYM singing those off key ditties that they somehow believe is so satirical and poignant really makes me cringe in embarrassment. It was one thing doing performances of Bach cantatas or putting on performances of Shakespeare (usually he Merchant of Venice or Marlowe's Jew of Malta, coincidence?) as we did in my time, and it's another thing singing these chants outside of college campuses or in downtown areas like Buffalo. These songs I guess are to trigger non-linear exponentials surges of creativity in their listeners so that they come to the realization about George Schultz and Felix Rohatyn (certainly on everybody's mind these days), and join the revolution!


10-25-2006, 05:36 PM
The LYM cult is doing what we on the old days called an "Intervention". This was before the big money demands come in. The same people who denounced the CP, Dems , envoronmentalists then bought Kmart clothes and became clean faced people at airport card table shrines and door to door anti drug saviours.
Get ready to pick out some new clothes yutes. If you really sip Lyn's Kool Aid you will be wearing those clothes 30 years later like current deadenders.
The LYM did an intervention at the Dem debate in Baltimore in 2044 and an NAACP convention in DC this year.
The latest fore into singing for spare change and hopes of stardom was in CT. last night.

  • New London - Sen. Joe Lieberman was having enough trouble making his position known over the boos. Then came the singing.
    In the third and likely final debate of their Senate campaign, Lieberman and his opponents, Democrat Ned Lamont and Republican Alan Schlesinger, were each showered with applause, hissed at in derision, and ultimately delayed, twice, by the singing supporters of a guy who's not even in the race - the perennial presidential also-ran Lyndon LaRouche.
    Lieberman, a three-term Democrat who is running as an independent after losing this summer's primary to Lamont, was already being booed by some in the crowd as he answered a question about distorting campaign charges, alleging that Lamont had twisted his record.
    The senator raised a finger to his lips to quiet the crowd, when a small clutch of people - who later said they were supporters of LaRouche - stood and began to sing to the senator, over the increasingly angry complaints of the rest of the crowd.
    All three candidates, who had been largely exchanging familiar jabs at each others' campaign stances up to that point, seemed stunned.
    Lamont, seemingly bewildered, called out to the group to stop, while the debate's moderator - George Stephanopoulos of ABC News - announced that the singing was only detracting from the time allotted the candidates. There was also a second disruption from the group, who passed out LaRouche campaign literature and performed their song (one audible phrases identified Vice President Dick Cheney as a fat-<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> Nazi”) for passersby.

10-25-2006, 05:38 PM
The LYM cult is doing what we on the old days called an "Intervention". This was before the big money demands come in. The same people who denounced the CP, Dems , envoronmentalists then bought Kmart clothes and became clean faced people at airport card table shrines and door to door anti drug saviours.
Get ready to pick out some new clothes yutes. If you really sip Lyn's Kool Aid you will be wearing those clothes 30 years later like current deadenders.
The LYM did an intervention at the Dem debate in Baltimore in 2044 and an NAACP convention in DC this year.
The latest fore into singing for spare change and hopes of stardom was in CT. last night.

  • New London - Sen. Joe Lieberman was having enough trouble making his position known over the boos. Then came the singing.
    In the third and likely final debate of their Senate campaign, Lieberman and his opponents, Democrat Ned Lamont and Republican Alan Schlesinger, were each showered with applause, hissed at in derision, and ultimately delayed, twice, by the singing supporters of a guy who's not even in the race - the perennial presidential also-ran Lyndon LaRouche.
    Lieberman, a three-term Democrat who is running as an independent after losing this summer's primary to Lamont, was already being booed by some in the crowd as he answered a question about distorting campaign charges, alleging that Lamont had twisted his record.
    The senator raised a finger to his lips to quiet the crowd, when a small clutch of people - who later said they were supporters of LaRouche - stood and began to sing to the senator, over the increasingly angry complaints of the rest of the crowd.
    All three candidates, who had been largely exchanging familiar jabs at each others' campaign stances up to that point, seemed stunned.
    Lamont, seemingly bewildered, called out to the group to stop, while the debate's moderator - George Stephanopoulos of ABC News - announced that the singing was only detracting from the time allotted the candidates. There was also a second disruption from the group, who passed out LaRouche campaign literature and performed their song (one audible phrases identified Vice President Dick Cheney as a fat-<font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font><font color="ff0000">•</font> Nazi”) for passersby.

10-26-2006, 03:28 AM
In these threads you can see how we have been used by Republican operatives to disrupt and discredit Dems. We also worked with Dems to screw other Dems by spreading innuendo. The yutes may think they are doing one thing for humanity.
However, your role is really to be both a cult of Larouche and a cult of baffoonery. Notice in this CT TV station web site how our intervention is recieved.
Somehow, no one mentions us saving humanity.

  • *
    Bloggers checked in on the heckling of Joe Lieberman when Carolina C. wrote "the entourage that Lamont brought to sabotage the senator's responses tonight was despicable."
    Lieberman at debate: "Together we have..."
    [heckler singing] "lieeeberman..."
    (groans from audience)
    George Stephanopoulos at debate: "keep going, go on senator."
    [heckler singing] "heeee is a bad as a Nazi"
    Stephanopoulos: "let him give his closing statement please!"
    A blogger named Sharoney answered; "Carolina, how do you know Ned brought those hecklers? Were you one of them? It's more plausible that Joe brought them himself to garner sympathy."
    Both bloggers are wrong. The hecklers later identified themselves to reporters as supporters of perennial fringe presidential candidate Lyndon Larouche.

  • Lyn may want things to go up in shock value. This could be scary as the combination of a Messianic cult leader fueling his yutes with end of the world hysteria and imminent economic collapse will effect people.
    Remember, you are all still alive today because we stole and scammed enough money to put Lyn on TV for 1/2 hour shows in the 1980s. Many of our leaders and fundraisers felt justified in their actions "to save humanity".
    I have more from the Larouche Warped Tour 2006 coming soon.

10-26-2006, 07:52 AM
When LaRouche was attempting to model his cult in the seventies along the lines of Hitler's, he was also ostensibly attacking this and that as fascist, e.g. austerity policies were termed "Schachtian" austerity policies. This is just one instance of the fact that whatever LaRouche attacks at a given moment, that he is. In his latest diatribe, he makes the following statement which applies to nothing so much as to him and his own minions, most particularly the LYM:
"That policy of the satanic Olympian Zeus, is to hold the great majority of the human population in the condition of a human parody of tamed, or hunted cattle, cattle who defend the stupidity imposed upon them by their captors, as 'the way of life' which those victims are disposed to defend, even somewhat ferociously."
Nothing amuses me more than to see this little man condemn himself out of his own mouth - or saddens me more that some regard him as a messiah.


10-26-2006, 03:32 PM
Let us move on to Seattle and see what the LYM seems to attract in its aura of power:

  • **
    A bizarre case of what appeared to be justifiable homicide rattled the heart of Seattle's swanky downtown shopping district late Saturday morning.
    Seattle police are still piecing together what happened, but this much is known: A young man was killed on the crowded sidewalk outside Westlake Center, and the confessed shooter was allowed to walk out of a police station....
    Witnesses reported a man in a yellow shirt acting erratically, insulting and threatening passing pedestrians at Pike Street and Boren Avenue near the Washington State Convention and Trade Center, said Seattle police spokeswoman Deb Brown......................
    The man in the yellow shirt apparently focused in on the second man, saying, "I am going to kill you," Brown said. He then began punching and kicking the second man until the man fell to the sidewalk.
    The victim happened to have a concealed-weapons permit, Brown said, and he was carrying a handgun. He pulled out the gun and fired once, hitting his attacker in the abdomen.
    "It looked to me like he shot him in self-defense," said Linda Vu, who was across the street from the shooting, handing out fliers for political activist Lyndon LaRouche. "It's kind of crazy."

I do not want any thing like this to happen. There was a Seattle frat house which did the right thing and make an all day affait in making fun of the cult. Most reports I read of the LYM have them insulting and cursing passerbys who do not agree that Lyn is the new Messiah for the world.

  • Flour Power

    In what is perhaps becoming a pattern, a second Seattle student has been arrested after playfully tormenting sidewalk canvassers for Lyndon LaRouche. Last weekend, a Seattle University student named Brad got fed up with the ubiquitous, aggressive campaigners on Broadway, so he dumped a five-pound bag of flour on their pamphlet-covered table (he's also a baker). He then went home, changed clothes to disguise his identity, and walked past the LaRouche table on his way to Vivace, a coffee shop a few blocks away.
    Soon, says Brad the Baker, police arrived at the coffee shop, arrested and handcuffed him, and charged him with destruction of property.
    After spending the night in jail, Brad—a self-described antiwar protester type, who complains, "I talked to [the LaRouchies] and I read their material and it's all crap"—is out on his own recognizance, awaiting trial.
    Earlier this summer, a UW grad was charged with assault after hurling water balloons at LaRouche campaigners. SARAH MIRK

10-26-2006, 03:40 PM
This is funny because this organiser may have her wardrobe already purchased for a card table shrine at the King County Airport. This happend at a candidates debate where the LYM did a workd historical intervention to save humanity.

You can't have a political event in this state without attracting Lynden LaRouche faithful. In a sighting much more rare than Sasquatch I can report that I personally witnessed a female LaRouchey who was actually attractive and good looking and didn't smell like old cabbage. I don't have photographic evidence but I've got eye witnesses"

  • Keep the cabbage comment fresh in your mind folks. I have a few Larouche Warped Tour2006 reviews from Boston students coming up.

    • "So that's when they signed the Treaty of Versailles, ending war and creating a world of peace that would sustain for all time. And nothing bad ever happened again."
      Finishing his lecture sooner than expected, my professor decided to let class out 20 minutes early. I was eager to use this free time before my next class to see the beautiful Boston University campus that I often neglect.
      I strolled out of the College of Arts and Sciences excited because I knew something great was about to happen to me. It was the same feeling I get when the dining hall serves barbeque honey rotisserie chicken the night after serving honey barbeque.
      Walking by Marsh Plaza, I saw that LaRouche's army was out in full force spreading their kind message of equality and understanding in the political world.
      One of his minions tried to get my attention. When he opened his mouth to speak his loving words to the people, I could see that his teeth were the c olor of Ted Kennedy's skin.
      Google the word "jaundice."
      The minion handed me a pamphlet and started the propaganda. "If it weren't for Dick Cheney, Hurricane Katrina never would have hit New Orleans, Arrested Development would still be on the air and Elvis Presley would still be alive."
      In case you were wondering, a man only says such things when he is absolutely crazy.
      I turned and started to walk away, but quickly broke into a full sprint. I didn't stop until I could no longer smell his breath. Garlic and rotten eggs. It reminded me that the problem in my refrigerator wasn't going away (mixing them with peanut butter was a bad choice).

  • Even Al Franken got into a fight with the cult in New Hampshire a few years ago when they kept on bothering people.
    This stuff does not discourage a cult. We would use this to get the troops even more riled up at the ADL or whatever was our enemy at the time.

10-26-2006, 03:54 PM
This is from a Boston school paper which found that they are part of an international consporacy against mankind. You see, the LYM will not notice that they are a cult. Lyn will not admit that this is a side show for himself and Helga. No one will look at what they are doing and figure out that this is the Bizarro world.
Many of us did that and we quickly left. The NCs are sure not going to let LYM read the web about what they actually do. The way you do this is Disney style, imagineering.
You make every single thing a yute does to appear to maek the world dependent on him or her. Keep them in this world 24/7 and you too can have a few hundred yutes who man card table shrines for you.

Daily Dig
Breaking the Dig is out to get you news!
by Lissa Harris
Holy Christ, I'm laughing too hard to blog. Gasp. Hee. Look at this: apparently we're part of a conspiracy against the Lyndon LaRouche Youth Movement, masterminded--and this is the fun part--by New Times/Village Voice Media head honcho Mike Lacey. Who in turn, takes his marching orders from Dick Cheney! Dan Savage's paper, The Stranger, is supposed to be in on this, too--and they have nothing but spite for New Times, whose Seattle Weekly is their most direct competitor. Oh, and we have power over academia?
All you media conspiracy nuts should try hanging out at an AAN convention sometime. It's a good day if these people have power over their bodily functions, and by these people. I mean us on the Dig's editorial staff. (Except Keohane, of course, he's a gentleman.) Earth to all you bloviating wack jobs: if you put half the energy you spend concocting these tortured manifestoes into fighting apathy, incompetence, and shrinking newsroom staffs in American media, you''d still be the Lyndon LaRouche Youth Movement. Screw that-- why don’t you send us some more moonbat letters? They're lots of fun.
Note that of all the LYM exposes they mention, ours came out first. That's the sort of thing we get steamed up about around here. Enormous secret paychecks signed by Dick Cheney? Stab me, that's hilarious.
In other news, the Dig is racists, especially me. (Mocking Southie drunkards and South End tiny-little-dog-owning fops? Fine. Alluding to Roxbury's soaring body count in a humor piece? Apparently racist.)
I'm predicting the links from our site will drive up traffic on both these blogs by about 3 billion percent, but I'm not holding my breath for a thank-you.



10-26-2006, 03:57 PM
It's amazing the energy these groups expound in their coincidence theories though. Cooooo-incidentally, I submitted the same idea about the LaRouche to Joe K. in May, independent of the lady who wrote the piece. They're just a fun story. Dunno tho, maybe the writer who did it has an inroad to the Conspiracy I don't know about. Rats!
But if you guys bought-and-paid for¦ and they're giving out paychecks for slamming the LYM...where's the action? I want a piece.
Because that's life, in DICK CHENEY'S AMERICA!
Barry said at 10:00 PM, 10/12/2006
I don't like LaRouchies. They have, on various occasions, called me a pimp and a white supremacist for disagreeing with them and politely asking them to get the f*** off my block. I am neither a pimp, nor a white supremacist, and I don't like being called names. It hurts my feelings.
Big Pimpin White Kingsbury said at 11:14 AM, 10/13/2006
Lyndon LaRouche is like gram stain for crackpots. As for the twelve tribes, I'm sympathetic, but if they really want to be left alone, they ought to move to Idaho or Wyoming, where no one would give an aerial copulation about them. But they might like the attention.
HARRIS said at 03:14 PM, 10/13/2006
Savage admits it: The jig is up.
Ernst Stavro Blofeld said at 07:41 PM, 10/13/2006
Our local LaRouche screwballs had a hand-written sign next to their racks of papers: Sex is more dangerous than plutonium. I yelled at them: Ya mean, you'd rather have a nuclear power plant on your front lawn than a used condom? These are the people who make Ayn Rand devotees look like Rhodes scholars. I welcome their scorn and hope I get letters from them, laden with tortured syntax and spelling errors that would shame a 4 year old.
Dan R said at 11:37 AM, 10/14/2006
Some of their signs are pretty good. The first time I heard about them was through Cometbus talking about a LaRouche sign that said MAGLEV Not War.


10-26-2006, 04:07 PM
Now here is what you folks will know, but the clueless LYM will not. On the other side of the Pond, further investigations in the the death of Jeremiah Duggan by forensic researchers have moved legal work forward.
See one the many article about this from the site.

Here is a July release by a law firm involved in the case.
Jeremiah Duggan: suspicious death abroad
18th July 2006
downloaded from site at See
HM Coroner
Frances Swaine and her team at Leigh Day & Co act for Mrs Erica Duggan in connection with the death of her son Jeremiah (Jerry) Duggan near Wiesbaden, Germany on 27 March 2003. Before his death, Jerry had been attending a conference organised by the youth wing of the controversial right-wing LaRouche movement. In the hours preceding his death, he had made several telephone calls to his family indicating that he believed that his life was in danger.
UK inquest
An English inquest was held into Jerry's death on 4th and 6th November 2003 where the Coroner reached a narrative verdict that he 'received fatal injuries when he ran into the road and was hit by two private motor cars. He had earlier been in a state of terror.'
Mrs Duggan approached us following the inquest as she had grave doubts as to the authenticity of the investigation in Germany, upon which the British Inquest's conclusion was based. The German authorities concluded that Jerry committed suicide by running into the path of a motor car, and was subsequently run over by a second car. Despite repeated requests from Mrs Duggan, the German authorities have taken no further action.

New evidence
New evidence from an independent forensic photographer obtained by Mrs Duggan following the Inquest contradicts the German findings. Whilst an initial examination of the scene does point to a road traffic accident where a young man died tragically, on closer forensic analysis, there are a number of points which do not fit this scenario. There are no traces of skin, hair, blood or clothing on either vehicle, nor is there any blood, tissue or clothing debris on the road. There are no tyre marks or other signs on either Jerry or on the cars, to indicate that either vehicle came into contact with the body. It is possible that Jerry lost his life elsewhere, prior to being placed at the scene.
The final resting place of both cars, one parked neatly behind the other following impact at around 80-90 KPH indicates that the cars are likely to have been moved prior to forensic examination, thus compromising the integrity of the forensic investigation by the German authorities.
Call for a new inquest
This evidence strongly supports Mrs Duggan's case for a new inquest. We believe that this case merits a fresh inquest with a full and frank inquiry into this suspicious death. We are therefore asking the Attorney General to use his power to quash the original Inquisition and order a new Inquest


10-26-2006, 04:33 PM
Now here is where you need to slow down and understand what is happening. In Europe, the org has a handfull with the Duggan case. It is defector a GoGo according to some sources.
In the US, the LYM along with some Christian student cults are the hgardest workers on campus. After seeing the LYM cult on campus for a while, many people acoss the country write article about this.
Lyn knows what to do about this. He issued this press release last month.
LaRouche Denounces Obvious Fraud in Observer, BBC Stories
Sept. 17, 2006 (EIRNS)—Lyndon LaRouche today denounced news stories appearing in the Sunday Observer and BBC, promoting the latest fraudulent account of the death of Jeremiah Duggan. Both news photographer, Paul Canning, which claimed that the German investigation into the death of Jeremiah Duggan was flawed.
LaRouche stated that "The Observer and BBC reports were not only fraudulent in effect, but willfully fraudulent in intent." LaRouche added that he suspected that the entire effort was "associated with the influence of Mrs. Lynne Cheney on the circles of Mrs. Duggan, via her close ties with Liz Symons." This, LaRouche said, "is the most probable track through which this willful fraud has been perpetrated."
What Lyn does is take the articles written about the cult and links them to the Duggan investigaton. Nothing is to be discussed about the actual content of the article about the colleges and not a word is to be whispered about Duggan.
Instead, another massive conspiracy is invented by taking as many names as possible and linking them all together where the focus is now on how the the evil ones wich to crush the Messiah who wants to save humanity.
In this crazy world, you can whip up the yutes into doing almost anything since now the whole workd depends on them fightin evil. In this case, Lynne Cheney is elevated into the Hostile Fantasy World of Lyndon H. Larouche Jr. to join the thousands of other demons.
Here are some links from EIR
This is all in the Larouche playbook. The yutes will do more interventions and get thrown out till violence escalates as members become more delusional. We did the same thing with the left during Mop Up.

I have my kids homework to review now.


10-27-2006, 05:05 AM
I suspect the reason that LaRouche cult publications do not openly mention FactNet in their recent Goebbels tactic is that they fear (what don't they fear?) that current adherents will (1) read the sad experience of past adherents (people who by the truthfulness of their account of the daily grind in this cult cannot possibly be woven into some conspiracy of slander as easily as one can do with journalists, publishers, or editors) (2) find that there is a wonderful life of accomplishment and usefulness available to them after leaving and that the sky will not in fact fall (3) discover the truth of the murder of a young man like many of the LYM whose sincerity - like theirs - cannot be called into question, but who nonetheless is now dead. Being of true service to others and being abused to the point of death selling magazines should not present a very difficult dilemma for even the most hardcore LaRouchite.


10-27-2006, 05:43 PM
Even tho FactNet has not shown up in the cult publications, it has been mention alot in the LYM rumor circle. My friend in the cult told me that FactNet is run and funded by financial establishment.


10-27-2006, 10:38 PM
The more I reread what is posted here, the more deja vu this is. Now deja Vu may be a relative to Linda Vu who witnessed a murder next to her card table shrine in Seattle, but, I will concentrate on the deja Vu aspects of the cult for the yutes.
So far we have seen Lyn go back to his bag of tricks and impress naive college kids to drop out and worship him as an expert. 40 years ago Lyn was an expert on Marxism. Today, he seems to be an expert on everything.
The yutes form a youth group to take power. 32 years ago it was the "Revolutionary Youth Movement". To put the final nail in the cult of personality, we have the "Larouche Youth Movement".
We did interventions against Lyn's enemies, dirty tricks for his supposed friends and spread disinformation. The yutes are pretty much doing the same thing with the exception of a few cofounders of the cult who run their own franchise of lunacy.
The episodes of violence slowly increased back then as we decided that only Larouche could and should run the left. Today we see the LYM fighting Al Franken, Ralph Nader supporters, NACCP and Al Sharpton supporters in forums.
In the 1970s, Lyn was able to hoodwink comedian Dick Greggory to briefly support the NCLC. Today, Beltran takes the Dick Greggory slot.
The question is asked "Why is not mentioned in these incredibly lengthy exposes of Lyn's enemies?".
The same reason the is never mentioned. This is the closest thing to a mirror for a blood sucker like Lyn that the Lym will see. This too is a deja vu moment for many of us.
In the 1970's the articles about Lyn were only in obscure leftist papers with an occasional press article appearing. No internet back then to research.
In the 1980s we had many articles, often written or researched by people like a Chip Berlet or Dennis King or others. What we did was to never let members read the actual articles. We sent members to every store, lobby or corner in NYC where King's "Our Town" series was distributed to take every copy. Unless you were in NYC, had an actual paper, you just got the briefing version of this. Just like Lyn's press release, the trick is to make the articles not about the org, but about the international conspiracy to stop larouche from saving humanity be upfront. The ADL was the problem, not Lyn denouncing Holocaust death figures.
Believe me, the last thing any member would do is to raise a question about some of the matters mentioned by King in public. You did not ask about Computron or why Lyn lived in a Sutton Place town house. Almost no one knew about the massive cash infusion into Leesburg for real estate purchases. Even as members were being evicted from their homes to the streets, they knew nothing about 1000 acre purchases and Leesburg Pike frontage purchases.
Factnet and allow anyone around the globe to do research. You would be shocked to find out how many ex members come here to find out stuff they knew nothing or just rumours about. LYM members on a break access this on college computers.
Create the mother of all conspiracies to make you work harder and prove your loyality by not reading this stuff is the game plan. The main enemy of a con man is doubt. Wishful thinking and praising the ego of the LYM jabroni make the charade work.
Next I have one of the best LYM reviews yet.


10-27-2006, 10:57 PM
Find the previous posts about the Ditzy Democrats encounter with DC LYM and Ted Andromidas to get a howl. Funny stuff.
This guy here is in my opinion the MacDaddy of the LYM for 2006.
If you read the comments, I think our long lost friend Steve is here.

Talking to Lyndon LaRouche's Youth Movement
September 27, 2006 - Link
By Dan
If you live in Boston, Pittsburgh, Seattle, or a number of other cities, there's a very good chance you've had a run in with the LaRouche People. It probably mirrored an encounter I recently had trying to cross Commonwealth Avenue. Somebody (who looked and sounded like a German exchange student) approached me and said, "What are your plans for the development of the solar system in the next fifty years?"
"I'm sorry, what?" I asked. I thought perhaps I had misheard him.
He repeated, "What are your plans for the development of the solar system in the next fifty years?"
I explained to my interlocutor (whom I will call Hans) that I did not have any plans for the development of the solar system in the next fifty years. Space travel is costly and time-consuming, and fifty years from now I imagined us possibly somewhere in the late-exploration, maybe early-colonization phase — but definitely not in the development age.
Hans wanted to know why I didn't have plans to develop the solar system.
I tried to explain that with the time and distance involved, it wasn't practical, and that more importantly, I didn't particularly care about developing the solar system.

Hans wanted to put 200 billion people on Mars. Then he started talking about how modern science was a conspiracy against human progress. Then he asked why I hadn't read the complete works of Kepler. Then he talked about Bush and the Right-Wing Conspiracy. I think all my professors were in the conspiracy as well. If I disagreed with anything, Hans would say, "How do you know that?"
"I read a book on it," I would say.
"A book? What, so just because it's in a book it's suddenly true?"
As most conversations with LaRouchies, it went nowhere. As usual, he wanted me to read the LaRouche Tract and maybe come to one of their political meetings. I felt a few minutes older.
There are two ways to view the LaRouche People. First, you could view them as a source of annoyance and harassment. I, on the other hand, tend to view them as a source of free entertainment. Sometimes, you have a free lunch hour. All your friends are out that day — and you need to kill time in a different way. You could kill time on the internet, but that's what you've been doing for the past four hours when you were supposed to be working. Fortunately, the LaRouche people want to talk to you. And why, as a friend once asked me, would you stop and talk to them? Ask instead why you would climb a mountain or why you would run a marathon. (Or, considering who's likely to read this, why you would install a plexiglass panel in your computer case so people can see your processor.) Because you can! Because they're there! And like the mountain, talking to the LaRouche People is a challenge. And just like climbing Everest is one of the greatest physical challenges, having an intelligent conversation with a LaRouchie is one of the great rhetorical challenges in our century. Some say it can't be done.
Just as you wouldn't want to climb Everest without some ropes, training, and other safety gear, it is important not to talk to a LaRouche Person unprepared. In order to get the most entertainment out of talking to the LaRouche Youth Movement, you need to abide by a few simple principles.


10-27-2006, 11:03 PM
It may be tempting to try — but these guys are wicked jaded to crazies. When I worried that 200 billion people on Mars could lead to interplanetary war because there was no mutually assured destruction, Hans listened with a straight face and explained why that wasn't very likely. If you want to try to gradually escalate the story into the ridiculous and see how long it takes them to notice, it doesn't work. You can't out-crazy the LaRouche People. When they talk about the imminent collapse of civilization unless we build a nuclear-powered desalinization plant in Gaza, they're completely serious.
The LaRouche People read the writings of a number dead people, predominantly 18th-century mathematicians and scientists. They also get some kind of bizarre spin on what each of these people valued. Kepler and Leibniz are good. Newton is bad. Riemann good. Aristotle bad. They will say things like, "In effect, Fermat, and later Leibniz, were defining the completed paths from the standpoint of the 'moments of becoming.'" If this doesn't make sense, it's not your fault. Fermat and Leibniz didn't really write those things — at least not in the way the LaRouche people are spinning them. They may also use words or terms you've never heard of before, like "physical economy." Some of these are special LaRouche words that either have no meaning or mean radically different things in the rest of the world.
Occasionally a LaRouche Person will say to me something like, "Now you're being like Newton! You've got to be more like Leibniz." Did he mean I needed to be more like a dead German inventor of calculus rather than a dead English inventor of calculus? Rather than sorting out exactly which bit of Leibniz's extensive writings he meant to contrast with Newton's extensive writings, I've found that a counterattack works best in these situations. Talk about something esoteric and full of jargon that you know a fair amount about that he won't. For law students, this may mean the rule against perpetuities. For Computer Science, this might mean... well, anything at all. LaRouche isn't very big on the information economy — so you're probably OK talking about something like email, though you could throw in a bit of theory in case you get one who used to have a life. Talk quickly, use long words, and pretend you expect them to understand you. Don't be subtle. Make sure you're blatantly parodying the way they were throwing around language. They still won't get it — but they're not the one you want to amuse.
This principle might sound mean at first — but once you've talked to the LaRouche people, you'll understand how important it is. Whatever they were before they joined the LaRouche Youth Movement has been stripped away. Somebody has put something back — to enable them to carry on a dialog, of sorts. However, that person was too lazy to program a decent sense of humor. Hans told me that we often think about the solar system in the same way we think about ourselves. I told him that I had always wondered why I imagined the solar system had an enormous penis. It was like telling a joke to Anna, the IKEA Help-bot.


10-27-2006, 11:09 PM
You will notice very quickly that LaRouche People tend to ask a lot of questions. You could try to answer their questions, in which case you would be on the receiving end of the Socratic method. Alternatively, you could play the Question Game. The trick is that the LaRouche People don't know they're playing the Question Game. Eventually they will crack and answer one. Don't let up, though. Keep them on the defensive. Make them support their answers. Keep them talking. Most importantly, ask questions that require them to think a bit. If you have trouble coming up with more questions, just repeat one of the questions they asked. (In the question game, repeats are a technical violation — but nobody's keeping score.) Try things like, "That's an interesting question. You've clearly thought about it. How would you answer it?" Then make them repeat their answer in their own words.

This step is at once the most important and the most challenging. Can you find something that the LaRouche Person actually believes? Delving into the mind of a LaRouche person is like sort of like going on a space walk. It's a vast and terrifying emptiness. Part of the brainwashing technique involves breaking down everything once known. Unfortunately, there's not much left underneath the LaRouche Babble. If you can get them to commit to something as simple as "I like Lyndon LaRouche" or "Dick Cheney is bad," you're getting somewhere. Unfortunately, their concepts of "Lyndon LaRouche" and "Dick Cheney" might be a bit nebulous — so try to get something a bit more concrete like "Ice cream is yummy."
Once you have a few things nailed down, don't let them go. The LaRouche People have a fairly poor grip on relevancy. When I asked how Bush's economic plan was connected to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle (Heisenberg bad), one told me, completely seriously, that "they have everything to do with each other. They're both in the universe!"
Occasionally you will start getting vaguely thoughtful responses out of one of the LaRouche People. This really worries the other LaRouche People who see one of their number has started to think independently. Thus, somebody else will come in and join the conversation. However, this new person doesn't have any of the context the previous person had. The new person is still asking the same questions the first person started with. Worse yet, you don't know whether the new person likes ice cream. You're back at the very beginning. Don't let this happen! Soon the first person will slip off, probably for reprogramming, and you're stuck talking to the new person. Inevitably, the new person is the supervisor, or whatever Senior LaRouche people are called, and so all your work with the first person is wasted.


10-27-2006, 11:15 PM
Unfortunately, I haven't figured out how to stop this, but I have a few ideas of what might work. You might be able to ask LaRouchie #1 to explain to LaRouchie #2 what you're talking about. You might be able to disagree vehemently with LaRouchie #2 and say that you agree with LaRouchie #1b. You might be able to isolate one and preempt the tag team before it even happens. Convince one to stray from the hive a bit. "That's really interesting — I'm going to grab a quick bite to eat. Want to come with me?" I doubt that would work--but it would be worth a try. The most effective way would probably be to have a buddy of your own to take care of the one running interference. This could be done by simply distracting LaRouchie #2 with questions and eventually screening out LaRouchie #1 or it could be done by running up at the crucial moment and saying, "Hey, don't I know you from somewhere? Yeah — I'm sure it was you. Why didn't you call me the next day?" Because most LaRouchies are male, use a male friend. LaRouche People aren't always comfortable with homosexuality.
Or perhaps they're not brain-dead but simply brainwashed. Once upon a time, every LaRouchie was an idealistic young person. Some shell of that idealistic young person still exists, albeit in a reanimated, mechanical form. It is important to remember that underlying mechanics of rational thought are still there, even if they're somewhat rusty. For example, as soon as I told Hans that I was fascinated by his ideas and wished that there was some sort of charismatic leader to tell me what I should think, perhaps somebody with a felony conviction, he knew I wasn't serious. It is very important for LaRouche people to be too intelligent to remain in school.
If you say things like, "Can you name two prominent anti-Semites who had quasi-militant youth movements?" the LaRouche people might get unhappy. Similarly, it's best not to talk about about LaRouche's felony convictions or some of his other peculiarities. If you mention any of these, the LaRouche people will start talking about the conspiracy against their noble leader. They will also throw out names of respectable people who talked to , respected, or served as defense attorney to LaRouche at some point. At this point, any rational discussion is functionally over.
Once you are prepared, go forth and talk to a LaRouche person. If you're really good, perhaps you can convince them to stop being a LaRouche person. Once you've explored this possibility, you can try to mix it up a little bit. Frequently there are other people pushing other things on the street near the LaRouche people. Lure one of the LaRouche People closer to a street preacher — preferably one carrying an 8 foot tall cross and wearing a sack. See if you can get the two to argue. See if you can get the two to agree. As Hans would say, there is no limit the the human imagination.
Oh. While you're having fun, be a little bit careful. The LaRouche people may be a bona-fide cult. In a science fiction movie, the brainless automatons seem harmless enough — but you know that's not going to last.


10-27-2006, 11:21 PM
Amazing article. I'm going to have to do this soon... the LaRouchies love Harvard Square.
by yetanotherdan on September 27, 2006, 3:12 am
Holy crap, you're in Boston?
Dinner Sunday night?
by Dan on September 27, 2006, 9:22 am
My older brother works for these people. Imagine the conversation you had with Hans, and then replay it over a turkey dinner. For several years. It boggles the mind Apparently, there are orginizations that specialize in cult-recovery that will refuse to work with LaRouche's followers.
by Gregglet on September 27, 2006, 3:00 pm
I'm so sorry. He's still working for them? "Boggles the mind" is probably the best phrase to describe that.
by Dan on September 27, 2006, 4:57 pm
I came across this blog while doing a blog search on "LaRouche". I have been a supporter of his for many years, and I was curious to see what the online community was saying about my guy.
I thought this particular article was interesting enough to merit a thoughtful response. Now one thing I'm not going to do here is to try to argue LaRouche's position on issues - because I really don't think that's what this is about. I don't think people write a blog on how to talk to LaRouche activists because they disagree passionately with him about whether we should impeach Cheny or whether we are in the midst of one of the greatest economic collapses in history, or whatever. I mean, you may disagree with him about some or all of what he says. But I really don't think that's the motivation at work here.
I think that people are made uncomfortable by LaRouche and his people because at a fundamental level they present a challenge to conventional ideas about what life is about, what we're doing here, and what kind of a world we live in.
Whenever I think about this, I'm constantly brought back to Sunday School lessons of years ago, and the biblical passage that really explains much of the animosity that Jesus aroused. "He spoke as one having authority, not like the scribes." Just think about what that means for a minute, while I do the necessary digression and disclaimer.


10-27-2006, 11:27 PM
Now I'm going to have to digress before some casual reader comes away with the view that LaRouche, or his supporters claim him to be a messiah figure, or whatever. The comparison of LaRouche to Jesus is my own private view, which I have never heard voiced by LaRouche or any others in his movement. And further, let me emphasize that I don't mean it at all in a religious sense. Unlike most in our society, I have come to regard Jesus not primarily as a religious figure, but as a philosopher. (With the important qualification that you can't do philosophy - or politics - in a theocracy like ancient Israel without involving yoiurself heavily in religious topics - which of course he did). I regard Jesus as a philosopher who because of the depth of his insight and the courage of his convictions was able to change history decisively. And I regard LaRouche in similar terms.
"He spoke as one having authority - not like the scribes".
Think about how much of our academic life is based on authority. Plato and Aristotle are popularly regarded as great philosophers. Do you agree? How do you know? Have you read them? Perhaps - but if you are most people, the answer is no. Most people who think these are great philosophers think so not through any acquaintance with their work, but because of the knowledge that other people, including the "experts" and the "authorities" regard them as such. Is LaRouche a great philosopher? How do you know? To my mind, the attitude of the "scribes" cited in the New Testamen tquote is summed up in the phrase "where is it written that..." which is often used in conversation or rhetoric to challenge some assumption with which we disagree. The notion embedded in this phrase is that if you can cite some established authority to back up your position, then you have somehow proven it true. Indeed, it is eye-opening to read the guidelines at Wikipedia. They say in so many words that when deciding what to put in an article it is less important whether what you write is true than whether it is well documented. No, I'm not making this up - see for yourself.
No, I'm not going to say that all authority is incorrect. When you're 5 years old, your parents had better exert authority to keep you from running into the street. They're right - and that authority will probably save your life. Perhaps better to say that all authority is suspect. What I think is really wrong is not the idea of authority, but the mindless submission to authorities, simply because they have been officially designated by your society as authorities.
You have a mind. Use it or lose it.
In school, how common is it to see a student challenge a teacher with a difficult or embarassing question? It happens - but it is memorable precisely because it is rare. Most students are what the philosopher Schiller (one of LaRouche's influences) called "bread scholars". Those who study and learn to recite their lessons in the accepted way because this is the path to getting paid (or perhaps in today's world, to getting laid).
So, lets say that you have come up in the world as a conventional thinker. You have learned to say and do the conventional things to be accepted by whatever group you aspire to hang with. You are less likely to ask "is this true or not" but rather "how will people react if I say this". Author David Riesman in his fifties classic "The Lonely Crowd" referred to this as the "other directed" character. He analyzed how even then young people were adopting elements of personal style and taste to "market" themselves to their peers.


10-27-2006, 11:31 PM
Now along come LaRouche's people. And they're in your face telling you that everything you know is false. And the effect is a little like one of the old Roadrunner cartoons, where Wiley Coyote has been tricked into running out over the cliff. And he runs along on the thin air - until he looks down. Oops! LaRouche's people challenge their listeners to look down. But there's that uncomfortable feeling in the back of your mind that you already knew that you were running on thin air. That you spend many of your waking hours filling up your time with excuses not to look down. So you construct or adopt the narrative about the "brainwashed LaRouche cult" to account for the feeling of discomfort - and still don't look down.
But the good news is, you can fly.
There is a little known document that is classic LaRouche from the early seventies. It's called "Beyond Psychoanalysis". It temds to be difficult reading, because it was written for an audience of elite, academically talented college students, with a background in Marxist scholarship. (My opinion - LaRouche has never confirmed that this was his intended audience - but that seems clear from the language of the documemnt and the historical setting in which it was written). But in any case, it has a lot of obscure references and will be tough going for the typical reader. But what it says it worth thinking about.
For those who want to check out the original - there is a PDF on the LaRouche movement site,
but that link doesn't seem to be working. I found a transcribed version on a website critical of the IWP (formerly a LaRouche splinter group). That copy is here:
My own completely unauthorized summary of Beyond Psychoanalysis goes like this.
Have you ever had the experience of trying to figure out some difficult problem or question, and you just couldn't seem to get it. And you kept chewing away at it, until suddenly everything fell into place. Aha! And you understood. Sometimes, in cartoons, this is depicted by a light bulb going on over the character's head. The subject matter of Beyond Psychoanalysis is that light bulb.
LaRouche says that the moments of actually creative thought are fundamentally different from ordinary consciousness. Our day to day thoughts consist largely of "object images" with particular emotional responses attached to them. And we sort of lurch along from one of these to the next, kind of like a train lumbering down the track.
But when the light bulb is about to go on, things are different. Object images become fluid and less definite. There is a period of uncertainty and ambiguity. And then - eureka!
Now what I think is the central important insight of Beyond Psychoanalysis is that the sense of identity - your idea of who you are, is different when the light bulb is on. Let me repeat that for special emphasis.
Your sense of identity is different when the light bulb is on.
In day to day life, most of us adopt what LaRouche refers to as "personas" - from the Greek word for a theatrical mask. These are the faces we put on for our relationships with the various groups and people we relate to day to day. And in our ordinary day to day consciousness, we adopt whatever persona we may be wearing as our identity - forgetting that it is, after all, only a mask.


10-27-2006, 11:36 PM
But when the light bulb is on, things are different. At that moment you are in touch with the part of us that is genuinely human - the part of us that has caused philosophers and prophets throughout the ages to declare that there is something unique and valuable about being human.
Even the sense of what is possible is entirely differnet when the light bulb is on.
Now beyond Psychoanalysis intended first and foremost as a manual for poliitical organizing - but in a somewhat different sense than that would be understood by a conventional party with a conventional "get out the vote" campaign. Political organizing, if done correctly, is inseperable from organizing people to a higher sense of identity. This is because for LaRouche, all meaningful politics is the politics of the lightbulb. The human creative spark which I've chosen to symbolize as "the lightbulb" is at the core of everything. It is what will revive the economy, bring peace, rebuld this tired world, and let us develop the solar system. It is what is at the root of all great poetry, music and art. It is why it makes sense to seek "economic justice" for the poor. It is what makes us human.
If you look within yourself and see what I'm referring to, then you know exactly what I'm talking about. Or, otherwise, not. That choice is up to you.
Now, any good LaRouche organizer will be trying to turn on your lightbulb - to cut through the layers of crud you maintain as your "mask", and engage you as human. Some of them are better a that then others, and some of the techniques they use amy be unorthodox to the point of seeming bizarre (although if you realize that's the goal - som eof them make more sense - such as the choral singing). And they don't always work - after all, these guys are only human, And some of those who come to the tables, such as yourself, are pretty determined opponents.
But here's a chalenge to you. Next time you're at a LaRouche table, pop out of your game, take off the mask, and turn on your lightbulb. You might be surprised how different things look.
Just a thought,
(anonymous) on September 29, 2006, 12:06 am
WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (My comment)


10-27-2006, 11:40 PM
Thankyou for the thoughtful response. As you might expect, I disagree with you on much of it, particularly on how rare thoughtful students are. I tend to agree, however, with a limited restatement of your central thesis. Creativity is one of the most valuable things humanity has and is the root of much of our hope for the future.
Of course, this is a view that is also taught in schools. Or perhaps trained or encouraged in schools. You will find more emphasis on it in Liberal Arts schools than in larger universities.
The problem is that I can look down or look inside myself and see a reasonably consistent and solid conglomoration of knowledge. And the other problem is that you're not going to believe that I'm really looking down/into myself because I still think LaRouche is kind of crazy. (Or, as a former LaRouche cell mate said, "To say that LaRouche is paranoid is like saying the Titanic had a bit of a leak.")
But I'll tell you what I'll do--since you did give a genuinely carefully thought response. I will ask the next LaRouche person to disagree with or criticize anything LaRouche has said or done. If they can do that, I'll take your words about a willingness to question or challenge authority at face value. If they can do that, I'll give them a chance.
by Dan on September 29, 2006, 1:33 pm
Excellent...might try that here in Berlin - there are more and more of them swarming around, especially at election times (just had local elections here). My dog actually makes more sense than they do; especially live the Zionist / banking theories....If it all weren't so sad it would be funny.
(anonymous) on September 29, 2006, 7:22 pm
There are a couple other ways to have fun with the LaRochies which are not mentioned in this article, for instances the snack game, a past time of mine a SCCC. Sometimes you will notice that LaRochies have snacks or coffee on their table, and if, like me, your a pour student in need of a free snack this is a perfect opportunity. Get one or two of your friends to start an intense debate with a LaRochie. As mentioned above, the LaRochies will implement a tag team attack often leaving their table unguarded. At is point grab as much food and coffee as you can and enjoy
PS I never run into this but if the food or coffee tastes funny I would stop eating it. Remember these people think DDT is harmless.
(anonymous) on October 3, 2006, 9:09 pm
Great article. I just ran into a LaRouchie on commonwealth avenue and had about a 30 minute long "conversation." The guy started off asking how many universes I thought there were, and after talking to him a bit about string theory for a few minutes, he moved on to a series of other topics. These people can talk! I've never witnessed such senseless, and pointless conversation in my life. Not once did he make any type of valid point, argument or conclusion. He finally asked me why I thought they (the Larouche people) go back and look at famous texts and theories, and I responded with "I dont know why?". At that point he said I wasn't worth talking to! I felt pretty proud of that accomplishment. I wish I had read this article first though, and I'll definitley keep it in mind for my next confrontation.
(anonymous) on October 4, 2006, 1:03 pm


10-27-2006, 11:55 PM
Boy that took a long time, but it was worth it. I just wish to add that Steve's speech is right out of 1974 when Lyn was fabricating CIA brainwashing plots of Chris White and Puerto Rican Frogmen who were going to emerge from the Hudson river to kill him.
The version I heard was slightly different than Steve's gushing review. We were told that the essense of Lyn was in that tiny "Spark" between "not knowing and knowing". Lyn's mind was like that 24/7, always with light bulbs a popping.
There were meetings with members where Lyn said that his creativity was so domineering of his life that he wished the Gods would give him respite and make him "blocked" like us to rest.
It took a few years for me to find out that the only think popping were wine bottles with a drunken Lyn surrounded by members eating the crumbs from the dinner who giggled like school girls over Lyn's every word.
Now Steve gets to giggle like a school girl.
(Message edited by xlcr4life on October 28, 2006)


10-28-2006, 06:44 AM
Some have asked that I elaborate in detail why the mathematics and physics "work" of the LaRouche cult is a through-and-through fraud. I went to the LYM site, clicked on pedagogicals, and chose to look at Part 1 of Bruce Director's series "Riemann for Dummies."
First, a general point. It is usually the case in all their "scientific" "work" which is so heavily based not on thinking but on mere name dropping that the views they ascribe to the writings of great minds such as Kepler, Leibniz, and Gauss in particular are manifestly NOT the views of those titans, but rather of the Lilliputian LaRouchite who gives them. They will quote directly from these writings on occasion, but will then give their meaning such a dizzying spin as to render them incomprehensible. So I will not indulge in an endlessly scholastic exercise of laying bare such lying practices as this was a key part of the Lyn Marcus/Lyndy LaRouche "method" from its inception when he was an SWP organizer. The trick is to cite Plekhanov say (or now Kepler) with authority in full knowledge of the fact that (a) nearly no one had actually read the cited author and (b) to cow the ostensibly less well read with this pseudoerudition. It is important, too, to keep up front that LaRouche is in no way intellectually even at the level of an academic at a community college, that he is simply a compulsively onanistic name dropper, and that he unfortunately never seems compelled to accurately report what someone has in fact said. So one should not blame Director or other epigonoi for lapsing into the sins of their mentor. Lastly I might note that it is comical to see the LaRouchites and Randian zealots battling it out on campus since both Lyn and Ayn (a) extablished cults of personality (b) make the same appeal to "reason" (though differently conceived, and in reality just a reaffirmation of whatever bilge they happen to pitch) (c) never admit when they are in error and, most importantly, (d) have no idea how to use a comma. The rule for each seems to be: when in doubt, use one.

  • The way Director talks, one would think he is intimidated by mathematical expressions since he seems to conclude that use of mathematical formulae is an exercise in empty formalism. As is well known, the vast majority of practicing pure mathematicians are implicit - and quite often explicit - Platonists. I have never known a single mathematician who subscribed to the Hilbert program, particularly after Goedel's revolutionary 1931 paper "Ueber formal unentscheidbare Saetze der Principia Mathematica und verwandter Systeme." All of Goedel's most important work was motivated by a Platonist program, and he was a lifelong student of Leibniz. Curious that Director does not make more of Goedel. (But then the LYM cannot be expected to take the time away from the card-table shrine to master more than high school mathematics.) I suppose Goedel does not conveniently fit into this new LaRouchian quest after "universal physical principles."

10-28-2006, 07:14 AM
500 years ago Paolo Sarpi and his protege Galileo, pushed a similar scam, against the Renaissance, with a, "Science for Dummies" series, which taught that the universe could be made simple, if the human mind were removed.
The Renaissance was not an unmitigated Age of Progress, rather it was a time when all of classical civilization - from its peaks to its decadent and superstitious valleys - was being summoned up to enrich life. I know little about Sarpi, but can anyone with a straight face aver that Galileo was 'running a scam' against the Renaissance? And if it can be argued that Galileo's work eschews discussion of mind, it is only because he was mired in an academic world which - like the LaRouche cult - uses Nature as a mirror to reflect back its own fantasies. Galileo ruthlessly put questions to Nature herself in an effort to arrive at physical truth, not to ratify what some old fart arbitrarily happened to say was there.
From our standpoint it were more appropriate to characterize the Gauss/Riemann theory of functions, as a metaphorical science, rather than a formal mathematical one. That being the case, we will avoid beginning with a formal definition of a function, preferring to leave such matters unstated, so that the reader can construct a concept, rather than learn a definition.
It is impossible to fashion a concept without use of language. One can have a feeling, an insight, an intuition without language perhaps, but one cannot have a proper concept. There is nothing at all wrong with defining a concept! But then a lack of definitions helps the LaRouchites talk in epicycles. One thing is for sure: mathematics was not for Gauss and Riemann a metaphorical exercise, though Riemann like Goedel did pursue mathematics with a philosophical program in mind.
Contained in these projections, are a set of unique positions (singularities), such as the points representing the place where the motion of the planets change direction; ... Working backwards, the relationship among these singularities, affords an investigator the ability to construct a function, that would produce the observed result.
Um, this is called science. One notes down appearances and develops a coherent model to account for these observations.
The required function, therefore, must not simply account for the appearances, but it must account for the physical motion of the planet, which required an inquiry into the reason for the planet's motion ...
Again, part of science. One makes a model in the hope that it captures reality. Duh.


10-28-2006, 07:29 AM
I leave this as an exercise: analyze the two appended whoppers. One needs only common sense, a high tolerance for irrationality, and a good sense of humor. Next time I will look at Part 2 of this series, "Riemann for Anti-dummies."
The function Kepler constructed, was not a formal logical construction, but a metaphor, using geometry, words and number, to reflect the characteristics of Mind, to the Mind. The sought after function cannot be stated in simple formal mathematical terms, but only through its elaboration, which is contained in the entire corpus of Kepler's work.
The above conditions, are only some of the characteristics, determined by the sought after function that characterizes the motions of the solar system. It is the overall nature of the function, that determines each characteristic. Ironically, we know the nature of the function, from the characteristics, yet we cannot discover the characteristics, without a concept of the function.


10-28-2006, 09:48 AM
For the next soul who runs up against an LYM shrine, here is a scenario to drop on their pointy heads when they start talking about developing the solar system.
The Last Emergency by James Howard Kunstler (no relation to William K the famous attorney) details the upcoming collapse of the petroleum based economy in about 50-60 years, and supports this with the use of the oil industry's own data and their own experts. He is not alone in raising this issue; Thomas Berry did so in the 1990s when he wrote The Great Work. David Korten has written The Great Turning, which offers up an alternative view of the future, albeit rather utopian in its outlook, in coping with this event.
We are facing the convergence of three events:
1 - the available oil on this planet (from all sources) is running out (we may have passed or are about to pass global peak production so less than 50% of the original oil reserves remain) with ongoing increases in demand. China now rivals the US as a leading petroleum customer. This has enormous implications for every product that relies on petroleum (not just gasoline - think plastics for one);
2 - the climate is undergoing change. One scenario, for which there are early indications (the release of freshwater from melting ice in the Arctic and Greenland), is the shutdown of the Gulf Stream. Europe would be immediately affected should this occur (it is documented that the Stream shut down for a few years during the Middle Ages);
3 - the Republicans are leaving an enormous debt for the future, along with absolutely no effort made to reform entitlement programs like Social Security. At some point, taxes will rise and benefits will go down in order to balance the books, which may result in social disruptions and unrest as society deals with the fallout.
Given all of the foregoing, what is Larouche proposing to mitigate the implications of the convergence of these events and create a stable society that can weather the anticipated disruptions?
If the respondent brings up technology as an answer - remind them (as Kunstler reminded Google's employees who suggested technology was the answer) that petroleum based products underlie technology products and they will either be unavailable or prohibitively expensive for routine day-to-day use, as opposed to the current situation.
That should keep them spinning for a while.
And if anyone has a link off the top of their heads to a Larouche blog, I'll be happy to start the ball rolling myself.


10-28-2006, 10:54 AM
Oh goody, I found just the spot, Carl Osgood's blog. ( Let's see if he is willing to entertain my questions. I'll let ya know. And I notice our good buddy Steve has been out and about spreading the Larouche gospel. I wonder how he feels about this ( I don't know how much of Weiss' spiel is just political bloviating, but boy if he has it right it could make life a tad interesting for some of LHL's followers.


10-28-2006, 02:55 PM
Back again. Carl answered, albeit there will be a slight delay in receiving his final answer.
Congratulations. You're the first person to directly criticzed LaRouche to me since I started my blog. And, you had the guts to do it in your own name. I'm not be facetious here, either. You should see some of the anonymous attacks that I get. I intend to reply to you on my blog but it may take me a day or two, because I have a lot of work to do the next few days but I intend to give you a full reply.
Mind you, that's what he said in his email back. My comment isn't up at his blog, evidently that will occur when he replies.


vBulletin® v3.7.3, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Edit - History - Print - Recent Changes - Search
Page last modified on July 21, 2012, at 04:22 PM